Topic: Inquiring minds want to know

[dhall57]

Maybe I'm a little bored this week, but been doing a little web searching. I know it's been 40 plus years since the first superbike the CB750 hit the showroom floors in 1969. The KO's were the performance champs. 736cc, rated at 67hp, top speed 125 and quarter mile times mid to high 12's. Jump forward 42 years and one of Honda's most popular models for the younger rider is the CBR600. 599cc, rated at around 100 to 105hp, top speed 160 range and quarter miles times high 10's to 11 sec. Is technology in engine building and overall design of bikes made such drastic improvements to produce such outstanding performance improvements so a bike with only 599cc is so much faster and powerful than our CB750's 736cc.

[Cqyqte]

Newer lighter metals, fuel injection, ECM's and plastics/carbon fibre pretty much says it all.

[754]

 It is not new lighter metals, is  lighter metal parts And PLASTICS...

[Cqyqte]

Yes better put, but I am sure the grades of aluminum used on structural components as well as engine components are new compared to those that existed 40 years ago.  But I don't want to start an arguement, so I concede I like the way you reworded it.

[Stev-o]

What is the weight difference of the two models?  Must be close to 150 lbs?

[crazypj]

Most of the engine design was known about 50+ yrs ago.
 Materials are the same, the main difference is consumer and cost of production. (had to have NASA type budget to use many of the materials in 70's)
 Main advance is airflow through engine and combustion process (partly due to EPA regulations)
Honda was a leader in the 1970's, Detroit said it would take 10+ yrs to comply with emission regs
 Honda built a car to comply within a year or so and continued development to be ahead of upcoming regulations (they had bikes to 'beat' with 2010 CARB regs in 2006)
Computer technology has lead to massive improvements, when you can make 'virtual'
engines it's a lot cheaper than making actual ones.
 I think Honda still has highest BHP/liter for normally aspirated engine with 1964~65 250/300 six cyl??

[strynboen]

ok  HK power is a part of it..but brakes /abs// tire/ stiffer frames and smart dampers/stering..make them farster and safer at same time
but still lowe that basis mashine this sohc are..have hvat are needet..to have fun..and looks damed fine

[grcamna2]

The combustion chamber/intake tract designs along w/ better carbs/fuel injection plus the watercooling gets tighter piston fit tolerances along w/ higher compression #'s;that CBR600 is what I would call a Hot production race bike that's been detuned for  street use.
 The definition of "Superbike vs Sportbike" has been radically redefined....also..Honda factory racing R &D(40 YEARS!!!) does improve the breed.I still enjoy going at a moderate pace and then love the comfort on the long haul of my Vintage Honda CB. I've been trying to learn to go just a bit slower...the ride lasts longer and I can see MANY more things on either side of me,the faster I go,the more everything is just a
BLURR! To be totally honest...yeah..I still love to fly through the twisties...but I keep missing all of the scenery ! and that was the main reason I began my journey;not to get from point A to point B as fast as possible,like a time trial....but I've been REALLY TRYING to slow down more and enjoy the main part of the journey.....otherwise I'm always suffering from jet lag;the more I slow down...the more I can see the view and REMEMBER what was along the way.....as I'm writing this I'm doing my best to convince myself to "slow down now..juusssst  slow down just a bit".         Enjoy the Ride friends !!

[Stev-o]

 I think Honda still has highest BHP/liter for normally aspirated engine with 1964~65 250/300 six cyl??

The Honda S2000 sports car had the highest BHP/liter of any normally aspirated vehicle - 240 hp out of a 4 cyl 2000cc motor.

[dhall57]

Here's a little something that I hadn't thought about again until now. Back several months ago my son and I were out and about my 750's the KO and K6. We were just cruising down Hwy421 a main interstate near my house. All of a sudden three biker boyz came flying by us on there crotch rockets. At the time I was running about 65 so I'm guessing they were doing 80 or better. Kinda  pissed me off so I motioned to my son and we cranked down on our CB's When we caught up to them the KO was at a 100 and my son on the k6 was just a bike length behind. Finally one of the Biker boyz acknowledged me with a thrown up hand and I did the same and than back off. Man that made me fill good

[dave500]

twin direct cams,bore/stroke ratio,rod length and weight,crank weight,electronic ignition?

[K5owner]

Pretty much what everyone's said. Boils down to more sophisticated technology, different materials and a thirst to improve, go faster, stop better and scare the crap out of me. I had a 600RR. Had to sell it - It was out to hurt me.

[dave500]

thing also is they arent like souping up an old engine and losing low rev torque,,these late bikes can be in completely the wrong too high a gear and pull like a train.

[Terry in Australia]

Yep, modern bikes are scary, if a modern 1000cc sportsbike isn't pumping out close to 200 BHP now, it's not gonna sell. "Back in the day", I had a Kawasaki Z900 that made 80 BHP and would do 135 MPH and everyone told me that it was a "death machine", and the government was talking about limiting BHP like they did in Japan and Europe, but I guess that's all been forgotten about now?

My Triumph Rocket III has 141 BHP and 147 ft lbs of torque at the back wheel, but is a pleasant long distance cruiser as well, so apart from scaring Harley riders and the occasional sportsbike, I like to just lope along at, or around, the legal limit. Most sportsbikes have to be ridden at totally illegal speeds to be enjoyable to ride. That's why I still like our old beasts, they are just so enjoyable to ride without having to risk your license. Cheers, Terry.

[strynboen]

yes you are total right terry....i vas on a trip,,, dreaming racing araund..it all went fine...but sudenly i vas overtaken by a 80 years old lady,,in a nissan micra..she vas driving ca 100 kmt...and i vake up of my dream...scheise..
bur some month later,, came over the schok ...im nov thinking that is is fine to have so mutch fun at only 100 kmt..is a good thing..and no risk loss of licens or life

[K5owner]

Totally agree with you guys. For two wheel fun; you can't beat the older bikes.

On the other hand...  I have a little Miata that takes care of the the other side of my brain 
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=99508.0

[Terry in Australia]

Totally agree with you guys. For two wheel fun; you can't beat the older bikes.

On the other hand...  I have a little Miata that takes care of the the other side of my brain 

Ha ha, my cuz has a new MX5 (which I think is a Miata?) and it's great fun with the top down on a warm day. Only problem is I'm 6'4" tall, and it's a tight fit! Cheers, Terry.

[Deltarider]

In my personal opinion the fun of riding a motorcycle is in the contrast. And by that I mean the contrast in your view. The minor the roads the lower the speed you need to get that feeling of excitement. Boring autobahns always made me cruise at 140 km/h or more and it was still boring. I discovered this hunger for contrast long time ago and when on holidaytrips, I've made it a habit to ride down these smaller - often curvy - roads. The last thing you need there is weight. Therefore I'll never have a bike that weighs more than 200 kg. I want my bike agile. Up to now 50hp has always be enough for me. Hasn't BMW always stressed this - a bit patronizing maybe - in the 70s? (Look at them now...). On the market I always admire the models between say 250 - 400 cc. BTW, for me it's the same with cars. Look at this beautifull little engine carmaker FIAT designed. Won four trophies in a year. Press was lyrious about driving this car. That Twin Air marvel was rightly rewarded engine of the year.

[K5owner]

Love the curvy roads.
------------------------------------------------------

(Terry - modified my previous post with the Miata build)

[Terry in Australia]

Love the curvy roads.
------------------------------------------------------

(Terry - modified my previous post with the Miata build)

Ray, that is superb mate, I'll show my cuz the pics next time I see him, he's been complaining that his MX5 is "lacking something"................

[crazypj]

Yep, modern bikes are scary, if a modern 1000cc sportsbike isn't pumping out close to 200 BHP now, it's not gonna sell. "Back in the day", I had a Kawasaki Z900 that made 80 BHP and would do 135 MPH and everyone told me that it was a "death machine", and the government was talking about limiting BHP like they did in Japan and Europe, but I guess that's all been forgotten about now?

My Triumph Rocket III has 141 BHP and 147 ft lbs of torque at the back wheel, but is a pleasant long distance cruiser as well, so apart from scaring Harley riders and the occasional sportsbike, I like to just lope along at, or around, the legal limit. Most sportsbikes have to be ridden at totally illegal speeds to be enjoyable to ride. That's why I still like our old beasts, they are just so enjoyable to ride without having to risk your license. Cheers, Terry.

I gues you've seen this?
TRIUMPH ROCKET III - 21ST CENTURY MOTORCYCLE MANUFACTURE

[grcamna2]

Those are the REAL Triumph factory guys I give'em an A+ for being original .

[BLUE71TURBO]

 Bottom line, you can thank the FORMULA -1   technology for most of the advancements.  BMW and HONDA are the front runners.  Check out the Honda CBR 1000RR or the BMW S1000RR . 

   2011 BMW S1000RR Review


  2012 Honda CBR1000RR Introduction

[ofreen]

Is technology in engine building and overall design of bikes made such drastic improvements to produce such outstanding performance improvements so a bike with only 599cc is so much faster and powerful than our CB750's 736cc.

Yes.  If they could have built something with the performance of a current 600 40 years ago, they would have.  There is more to it than HP numbers or torque spread.  For consumer use, it has to be reliable and be available for a price that normal people can afford.  The technology to do that didn't exist 40 years ago.  Some of what they are routinely mass producing now wasn't possible even 5-10 years ago.

[grcamna2]

BLUE, I got started early today & I'm sitting back with a couple cold ones watching those 2 youtube videos that you posted and dreaming...about borrowing those 2 bikes from the dealers..for a week...and having some big $............
Thanks man.