Author Topic: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap  (Read 27521 times)

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Offline Psychonaut

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I'm sure other CB's with a single 38mm caliper would benefit from this too. 

After doing a back to back spirited  ride on my friends modern sportbike,  I went from not liking the lever feel to hating it. My set up is, EBC pads, broken in BT45 90/90-18 on a 1.85 rim, 27-28 psi, 150lb rider.
I did four 40-0 mph tests with only the front no rear. I worked my way up to pulling as hard as I could on the lever. I only two finger brake. My friends bike would have had the rear tire off the ground with half of that force.  After doing a lot of research I came across some other posts of people doing this, Crazypj  posted about doing a 11mm master swap and I found this link .
http://www.vintagebrake.com/mastercylinder.htm

This is what I did.
I purchased a used 11mm front master cylinder for an 09' KLX250 for $20 shipped on Ebay, The KLX has a mirror mount and brake switch. Other dual propose bikes will have the same. You can use any 11mm designed for a 7/8 bar but I wanted the option of running a factory mirror in the future and I did not want to waste any volume pushing the stock inline brake switch. IF you don't need a mirror or switch mount you can get 11mm masters cheap as most dirt bikes run them. There is also a 1/2 (12.7mm) master used on many bikes.  There will be either a raised 11 or 1/2 somewhere on it

After getting the new MC on I found that the lever a little cto close to the bar. There was not enough lever travel so I used the CB lever. I had to drill the hole a little larger and shim the gap with a small washer. I had to grind it down some too where it stopped on the piston. I went a little too much and had to add some epoxy to get it perfect where I want it. I still need to work out a stop for the switch but I still have the rear brake switch for safety until then.

After getting the MC on, I found that although it felt better, the lever was now hitting my knuckles pretty good and it was stopping about the same for the amount of lever pressure. I pinched the old rubber line at various places with needle nose vice grips starting from the master down and checked the lever. The stock line was bulging way to much with the smaller MC. I ordered a new custom one piece line from  http://slingshot-cycles.com. He has the best prices around and custom lengths are not a problem. My bike is lowered 1" in the front, I ordered a 25" rubber line. A 24" would have worked too. I went back and forth on the line, rubber or braided. I like the look of rubber, it's not a track bike and if rubber is good enough on new bikes then it's enough for mine.  With the new rubber line on it is much improved, enough for me to share this with others. As for feel, There is a little more travel in the lever. I can get the lever to barely touch my knuckle with a full two finger pull, this is not riding though, just in the garage, riding the lever is perfect. I couldn't be happier. I have only ridden it once since getting this finished but I did do two very hard stops both from about 35-40 to 0  Not full force as I was on a spirited ride in traffic but pretty close. There is no way the bike would have stopped like this before even with a full two finger pull. I don't know if it is enough clamp to get the rear off the ground with this but I will do some 40-0 mph tests and repost.

Modified Honda lever.




I had a polished stock MC that I loved the look of but this still looks good and works much better.





« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 01:57:26 PM by Psychonaut »

Offline jessezm

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2012, 02:02:57 PM »
What is the stock bore of the MC on the 400f?  I'm using a 12.7mm MC from Mike's XS on mine, along with new honda brake pads, same tire as yours, and a drilled disk and braided single line.  It still doesn't stop like i'd like it to...

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2012, 02:39:58 PM »
Psychonaut,
                    Hi..I'm interested with the exact same thing for my front brakes and wanted to ask what would have happened if you had left the stock lever on the Kaw. master cyl. and tried to do a hard stop ?? Would you have had to remove your hand from around the twist grip to give the lever it's full travel area? or what ? I'm interested in that hardest stop you mentioned from 40-0 mph . I want to do the same thing on my CB400F as far as the new braided line all the way from the MC to the caliper and a MC swap from a another model w/ it's own brake switch...maybe the 1/2" bore MC...let me hear your thoughts..OK ??  :)
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Psychonaut

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2012, 03:02:44 PM »
What is the stock bore of the MC on the 400f?  I'm using a 12.7mm MC from Mike's XS on mine, along with new honda brake pads, same tire as yours, and a drilled disk and braided single line.  It still doesn't stop like i'd like it to...

Stock MC is 14mm.

Offline Psychonaut

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2012, 03:08:14 PM »
Psychonaut,
                    Hi..I'm interested with the exact same thing for my front brakes and wanted to ask what would have happened if you had left the stock lever on the Kaw. master cyl. and tried to do a hard stop ?? Would you have had to remove your hand from around the twist grip to give the lever it's full travel area? or what ? I'm interested in that hardest stop you mentioned from 40-0 mph . I want to do the same thing on my CB400F as far as the new braided line all the way from the MC to the caliper and a MC swap from a another model w/ it's own brake switch...maybe the 1/2" bore MC...let me hear your thoughts..OK ??  :)

The stock KLX lever would hit the grip, this was with my old line though but even with a new line it was too little. Trimming the stock lever was easy, I wouldn't have trimmed too much if I knew I couldn't add it back. I'll do the follow up test stop by the weekend. Even if it won't lift the rear I am still happy with the feel.


jessezm, How much did your MC improve it? I almost went that route but I had to find out what the 11 did first. I did buy a used 1/2 MC just in case though. I might but it on my dirt bike, it has too much bite. 

Offline jessezm

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2012, 03:35:56 PM »
Well I've never used the stock MC on this bike, and I don't have anything to compare it to right now--it it actually stops pretty well, I just thought that it would feel a little more grippy. 

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2012, 01:39:15 PM »
Psychonaut,
       Did you go further with those tests on your front brakes :) ?
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Psychonaut

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2012, 09:01:25 AM »
I went to this industrial park down the road from me this morning to do some hard stops. All stop are with front brake only. In the first stop I am not braking 100%. In the second stop you can hear the front lock just before I stop moving. This was not even close to a possibility before. The following stops were less and less hard even with the same pressure which was everything I had. The lever got progressively softer with more stops.  I haven't looked into why yet. It still feels great but the repeated stops did something to it and now it has a little more travel. I did another 5 or so stops off the vid and it didn't get better. I will give it another bleed and check the pad clearance and maybe try another pad.

Overall, it stops a little better but the lever feel is what is the best. I will work on it more later.

CB400F brake test

Ringo

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2012, 10:38:01 AM »
You probably just had a little brake fade from heat build-up.  It doesn't take too much to overheat these brakes.  The increased lever travel may have been from the fluid boiling and creating bubbles.  Feels like they're not fully bled.

I've experienced it several times on my 550.  The scariest was some REAL brake fade on a set of downhill switchbacks.  It's temporary though, and when everything cools off, they'll feel like they did.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 12:43:46 PM by Ringo »

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2012, 11:53:09 AM »
Thanks for that excellent video Psychonaut ;)...seems they're working at least 50% better than the original set-up, you think ? Which is twice as good !
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Psychonaut

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2012, 03:15:31 PM »
Thanks for that excellent video Psychonaut ;)...seems they're working at least 50% better than the original set-up, you think ? Which is twice as good !

I would say the feel 50% better and may work atleast 10% better. My big problem with it was the lever feel.

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2012, 03:26:01 PM »
Psychonaut,
       I received a very good tip from a nice member here on this forum..he told me a very good set of pads are either the sintered Bronze set or the ceramic style.I thought that I heard you're brake pads sounding like they were glazed from heat(probably the material isn't up to the extra "torque" from that nice 11mm MC  ;) you have in there now);they usually squeal when they're glazed.I'm not sure where to get those Nice pads that I just mentioned...but eventually..I'll get the $ after my top end work is paid for ;) :) to purchase a nice st of those myself ! I also want to have my front disc drilled a little...I need to find a person to do that work for me and then prep the holes to remove the sharp edges which can mess up those harder & quality pads.
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Psychonaut

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2012, 04:03:17 PM »
Psychonaut,
       I received a very good tip from a nice member here on this forum..he told me a very good set of pads are either the sintered Bronze set or the ceramic style.I thought that I heard you're brake pads sounding like they were glazed from heat(probably the material isn't up to the extra "torque" from that nice 11mm MC  ;) you have in there now);they usually squeal when they're glazed.I'm not sure where to get those Nice pads that I just mentioned...but eventually..I'll get the $ after my top end work is paid for ;) :) to purchase a nice st of those myself ! I also want to have my front disc drilled a little...I need to find a person to do that work for me and then prep the holes to remove the sharp edges which can mess up those harder & quality pads.

I hear you on the squeal. I have EBC FA pads, they are semi metallic. They are fine with moderate or heavy pressure but with light pressure like almost stopped at a light or parking lots and they squeal like a pig. I got a better used rotor last week and block sanded the dark glazing off with 80 grit, closest to 45 from rotaing  directing as I could to hopefully help bed the pad in quicker. I also sanded the pads and put a .002" high spot in center just so I knew they would re bed.  I did a 80 mile trip yesterday starting out easy to bed them in and then normal braking before doing the hard stop. Today the rotors are just as black as when I started and the squeal is back too. I think I am going to try the Vesrah VD-102 organics and see how  they are.

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2012, 05:32:37 PM »
You could try sanding the glaze off of you're EBC front pads and see how that works for a while...
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Ringo

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2012, 10:26:59 PM »
Hey, just a little more input to add here... I ran a pair of semi-metallics for a while and had constant squealing problems.  I deglazed the pads and rotors repeatedly to no avail.  I also greased the pivot pin and other rub points on the caliper/caliper arm. Nothing helped. 

I did eventually completely eliminate the squeal.  How?  With OEM style pads.  (organic I believe...?)  Brake effectiveness is nearly the same as with semi-metallics too.  Just a little food for thought.  :)

Offline Psychonaut

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2012, 04:49:11 AM »
Ringo, do you know what brand pads you used? I hate these EBC's.

Ringo

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2012, 08:32:41 AM »
I don't remember where I got them.  Found some that appear to be oem on ebay:

[ur]http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-Brake-Pad-Kit-CB550-CB400-CB750-06455-390-405-/320821716893?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item4ab276e79d[/url]

I would search various parts sites.  I believe the ones I have now are light brown, as opposed to the dark grey that they replaced.  Wish I could be more help, but I didn't save the site where I found them.

Offline robvangulik

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2012, 03:06:55 PM »
SBS rules (Scandinavian Brake Systems) excellent braking wet and dry, and NO squealing!

Offline Psychonaut

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2012, 04:52:15 PM »
Anyone one of you guys ever do a hard brake test or done hard braking while riding? I'm curious if any one else can lock their front wheel even if it's at just prior to stopped.  If not that what about riding hard. Maybe EBC pads are #$%*. I rolled my CB around the garage and by dirtbike. The dirtbike has way more bite just rolling it.

Offline magconpres

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2012, 10:24:21 PM »
Can someone confirm I have the physics of this right?
Since we are talking about using a smaller diameter MC, we have more piston travel to apply the same amount of pressure.  More travel equated to more leverage, so as long as you don't run out of travel, you can create more pressure in the system with less force.

Sound right?
1975 CB400F, stock,  on the road
1975 CB400F, ran when I parked it. Cafe Racer bound
1986 TLR200 commuter and trail bike when with the kids...90MPG!
1986 TLR200, Vintage Trials build up coming
1986 TLR200, Not sure what to do with this one...Vintage Trials Super Moto?
2004 GasGas 300EC...my enduro racer
2004 Sherco 290...Trials bike
2004 CRF70... Son's ride
2006 PW50 ... Daughter's ride
1982 XL500R (04 XR250 front end)...my DS bike.

Offline Psychonaut

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 04:59:10 AM »
Can someone confirm I have the physics of this right?
Since we are talking about using a smaller diameter MC, we have more piston travel to apply the same amount of pressure.  More travel equated to more leverage, so as long as you don't run out of travel, you can create more pressure in the system with less force.

Sound right?

Did you read the link in the first post?
http://www.vintagebrake.com/mastercylinder.htm

Offline magconpres

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2012, 01:06:15 AM »

Did you read the link in the first post?
http://www.vintagebrake.com/mastercylinder.htm

Totally missed that.
However, having read it, it really doesn't explain the physics of it, though I would say it confirms that we are essentially changing the leverage in the system.
1975 CB400F, stock,  on the road
1975 CB400F, ran when I parked it. Cafe Racer bound
1986 TLR200 commuter and trail bike when with the kids...90MPG!
1986 TLR200, Vintage Trials build up coming
1986 TLR200, Not sure what to do with this one...Vintage Trials Super Moto?
2004 GasGas 300EC...my enduro racer
2004 Sherco 290...Trials bike
2004 CRF70... Son's ride
2006 PW50 ... Daughter's ride
1982 XL500R (04 XR250 front end)...my DS bike.

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2012, 04:56:36 AM »
I believe that the smaller size piston in the master cylinder moves less volume..but makes more overall pressure...as the smaller piston is easier to push hydraulically against the(now :))larger caliper piston; a change in the MC to caliper piston ratio.
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Psychonaut

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2012, 12:35:23 PM »
Yes the smaller piston will create more pressure for a given lever force. It will also give better feel with more movement. Imagine the brake  pedal in your car moving half as much as it does now while being twice as firm. It would be very hard to modulate. That is how these CB's set up.

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Improving CB400f front brake, other CB's too? 11mm master cylinder swap
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2012, 01:21:53 PM »
Psychonaut,
      Did you get a quality set of front brake pads ?
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.