Author Topic: honda cb400f help me make it run right  (Read 8522 times)

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Offline aydynla

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honda cb400f help me make it run right
« on: January 26, 2012, 05:54:41 pm »
Hello everyone. i got this cb project e few months ago. its almost done and i cant make it run right. its all stock. bike starts up and runs too ritch. lots of smoke. doesnt smell like burning oil smells like gas. if i close fuel flow it will run for a minuet and then will rev up like crazy.
carbs are cleaned several times. just installed new points. tried 22mm and 24mm float level
appears to be standard jetting 40 pilots and 75 mains. neddle at middle third from the top position. air screw 2 turns out. runs the same way with and without airbox. timing appears to be ok. any ideas? this is my first time working with honda 4 cylinder bike. carbs are pretty close in balance.
thanks

Offline Randy

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2012, 06:08:20 pm »
Are the slides set at a stock level...
1973 CB500k, 1972 CB750 (New Arrival), 1978 Vespa P200 (New Arrival)

Offline aydynla

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2012, 06:43:10 pm »
What is stock level? They are just slightly open I couldn't find stock level. Slightly open on engine side of carburetor. probably 5 Mm on the other side



Offline aydynla

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2012, 06:46:33 pm »
Also! Is 40 a stock pilot size? Siems kinda big. Tell me more about slide level please.

Offline MoMo

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2012, 07:13:33 pm »
40 and 75 is stock.  Have you removed the midrange/emulsifier jets and cleaned out all the pores?  What do you mean by the timing appears to be right?  Are each set of points firing at the F mark and advancing between the two advance marks?  The air filter is installed and clean? The carb vent tubes installed and all passages clean?  ...Larry

Offline aydynla

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2012, 08:22:27 pm »
Midrange emulsifier? I have seen one emulsion  tube right above main jet. Its clean cleaned twice. Any other emulsion tubes there? Timing is right set with test light. Crabs were cleaned by some company in Ventura first, previous owner had them in the box. I opened them up and found many surprises. Gas flow to cylinder 4 was completly obstracted  and all air screw passages obstructed. I cleaned everything out. Im out of ideas. All the jets appear to be new.
Vent tubes are not connected yet, but clear. I placed pots for now to be able to take crabs out easy while i try making it run. But airbox filter is new. It ran the same with airbbox connected

Offline MoMo

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2012, 04:09:30 am »
Midrange emulsifier? I have seen one emulsion  tube right above main jet. Its clean cleaned twice. Any other emulsion tubes there? Timing is right set with test light. Crabs were cleaned by some company in Ventura first, previous owner had them in the box. I opened them up and found many surprises. Gas flow to cylinder 4 was completly obstracted  and all air screw passages obstructed. I cleaned everything out. Im out of ideas. All the jets appear to be new.
Vent tubes are not connected yet, but clear. I placed pots for now to be able to take crabs out easy while i try making it run. But airbox filter is new. It ran the same with airbbox connected


Check the rubber o-rings behind the carb flanges, the ones between the cylinder and flange.  When you had the emulsifier tubes out, did you check the carb body area that the emulsifier goes into?  I have had a couple 400 fours that were totally corroded up inside the body, preventing the fuel from mixing correctly.  By test light, do you mean timing light, was the timing set statically or dynamically? Keep at it...Larry

Offline aydynla

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2012, 07:20:46 am »
Timing was checked staticly with test light. I don't think timing would make it run this way, would it? Im going to work this weekend and will try everything on Monday. Ill collect all the info and ideas over the weekend and try everything on Monday.
No i didn't pay attention to corrosion. I had brand new emulsion tubes there, i placed originals back without any change in the way it runs.
First i thought it was a needle in a wrong position but from what i read i understand its in correct middle position.
What worries me is the fact that it reves like crazy once i block fuel supply. It will idle for a while and then rpms  go up like crazy for no reason. That is with fuel line disconnected. Under what condition something like this would accure? Am i getting to much fuel?

Offline aydynla

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2012, 07:22:42 am »
Does high fuel level effect idle?

Offline grcamna2

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2012, 07:38:59 am »
You may have some floats that are not sealing and flooding out your engine...then when you close up the fuel supply(you must have the idle set high to compensate)it revs too high. just a thought :).
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Offline camelman

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2012, 08:02:38 am »
High RPMs when you run out of fuel can indicate that your carbs are set too rich.  Then, when the fuel runs low, and the mixture leans out, it will race at high RPMs until it runs out of fuel.  What color are your spark plugs?  Also, have you compared your carbs to a schematic to see if anything is missing?  It sounds like the shop that rebuilt them didn't know what they were doing.  bikebandit.com has a schematic as do some other sites. 

When you set your timing, are you setting to the "T" or the "F"?  I had a bear of a time with a 350 twin a while back because I set the timing to the "T" (we all make mistakes ;-)  ).

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Offline aydynla

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2012, 08:06:46 am »
Ok, so far ill be checking three things: making sure slides are all the way down, float closing properly, and corrosion behind emulsifier tubes.
Any other ideas? Ill be working on the bike on Monday. Need all the info i can get so i can check everything.

Offline jessezm

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2012, 08:13:59 am »
I think it's normal for any bike to rev like that when you cut off the fuel--as the fuel dries up while there's still engine vacuum it sucks up more air and brings up the idle.  that's just what I *think* happens.  But either way, I would not bother chasing that issue as it does not imitate normal running conditions anyways.  I think what you're looking for is more along the lines of what grcamna2 mentioned which is a rich condition from too much fuel.  This could be related to float level or could be obstructed air passages.  Based on what you described as the condition you found the carbs in, I would suspect that there is still some kind of blockage in the tiny air feed passages.  You can use guitar strings and compressed air to ensure all air passages are cleared--especially the upper ones that are cast into the body of the carbs, which are often overlooked.

Also, I know you tried moving the float level but you don't know what the level really is once you put on the bowls because you can't see it...  there is a trick you can do by drilling and tapping the drain plug screws and installing a nipple, then attaching a clear plastic flexible tube to it and holding it upward like a "u" to see where the fuel level truly is.  A pain, I know, but if you get desperate it's worth a shot. 

Other thoughts--have you eliminated the possibility that you are burning oil and not gas?  have you checked your compression?  Also, does it smoke that much just at idle or is it through the entire range?

finally, have you tested the shape of your ignition and charging system?  Low voltage at the coils can imitate a rich condition.

Offline aydynla

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2012, 08:17:36 am »
It makes sence. That's what i was thinking. Mixture leans out and rpms go up.
Timing is set at F mark
I also have a feeling that something is missing or broken but i can't identify it yet. Ill look at diagram one more time again. I know that little ball is missing that keeps choke in the position. That company sucks for sure. I can't blame previous owner he didn't know for sure. Crabs were in the box with receipt for cleaning and rebuild. They were not clean for sure.
ike

Offline jessezm

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2012, 08:20:23 am »
Oh, two other thoughts (and Camelman beat me to the punch above on the high rev thing...):

1) Are you sure that you have the choke in the right position?  With these carbs, normal running position is with the the choke lever pushed all the way DOWN and FORWARD.  Sometimes that can be confusing...

2) The position of the slides is not going to fix the problem--as long as they are all in sync with each other you change the position with the idle speed screw, which raises or lowers them to affect your idle speed.  Guess what happens if you bottom them out?  Your bike won't run!

Offline aydynla

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2012, 08:33:34 am »
Choke is open for sure, i almost didn't want to mention it was  iafraid of confusion.
 I didn't want to worry much about slides. They are in equal position.
Bike doesn't need choke it runs worst with choke on too rich.
Smoking issue is at all throttle positions but no sMel of burning oil.
Plugs are black. I didn't check voltage at coils, will do it and report back.
I just replaced them with another used set. What i had wasn't working on 2cylinders. Ill check all passages with guitar string again and again.

Offline MoMo

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2012, 10:35:01 am »
Do you have a timing light to make sure the advance is working? ...Larry

Offline hondamatteo

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2012, 10:41:16 am »
Also I would make sure your slides are installed in the correct direction. They have a beveled edge on one side and I think its supposed to point to the air filter side. I installed these incorrectly once and it made it run very rich on my 350f!
'74 CB350F

Offline jessezm

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2012, 01:19:59 pm »
Also I would make sure your slides are installed in the correct direction. They have a beveled edge on one side and I think its supposed to point to the air filter side. I installed these incorrectly once and it made it run very rich on my 350f!

+1 this is a great observation--make sure the cutouts are facing the airbox.  I've never gotten to the point of trying to run my bike that way but I have certainly put the slides in wrong when not paying attention before, as they can be installed backwards if you're not paying attention.

Offline aydynla

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2012, 02:30:50 pm »
I just bought a timing light on ebay. Got a good deal
Im curious about those slides. Ill check when i get home. If those guys screwd up with slides that means they are in wrong carburetors, right?
They only fit one way, there is a groove on the side of each slide. The only way to have it backwards is to place #4 in to #1. I may be wrong.

Offline hondamatteo

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2012, 02:42:29 pm »
I just bought a timing light on ebay. Got a good deal
Im curious about those slides. Ill check when i get home. If those guys screwd up with slides that means they are in wrong carburetors, right?
They only fit one way, there is a groove on the side of each slide. The only way to have it backwards is to place #4 in to #1. I may be wrong.

correct, and they can also be taken apart and switched around by accident.
'74 CB350F

Offline aydynla

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2012, 02:45:03 pm »
Just to make sure. One side of the slide is almost straight and another half round
So the opening should face airbbox. Excuse this damn autocorect.
I think they are backwards. Ill check when i get home.
I had someone from the shop come check it out he sure didn't notice it. He removed crabs and placed them back on.

Offline hondamatteo

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2012, 02:58:02 pm »
Just to make sure. One side of the slide is almost straight and another half round
So the opening should face airbbox. Excuse this damn autocorect.
I think they are backwards. Ill check when i get home.
I had someone from the shop come check it out he sure didn't notice it. He removed crabs and placed them back on.

yup, beveled side should face air box. It can be hard to catch unless you know these carbs and have worked on them before.
'74 CB350F

Offline aydynla

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2012, 03:06:38 pm »
Thanks again. I think i should look at those slides before we continue. Ill come back with an update on that

Offline aydynla

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Re: honda cb400f help me make it run right
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2012, 08:58:01 pm »
Slides are backwards. I guess when you buy something that says sonicly cleaned and rebuild, dont beleive it. Open and look. When you find mechanic on craigslist who is willing to help you out, dont beleive it lol
Ill replace slides and report back to you guys. Thanks much. Ill need more help with this bike, its ground up restoration.
I guess that rule we all follow placing all individual parts in separate container doeant mean anything anymore. Im a rookie with this bike, but they are claiming to be pro's