Author Topic: Squish/Quench?  (Read 15650 times)

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Offline MRieck

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2006, 05:32:41 AM »
The EPA has interfered with bike performance based on emissions and noise. Low lift, short duration exhaust camshafts with early closing #'s are very common in new bikes.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2006, 07:12:35 PM »
I'm talking about advancing ignition timing....that's what i thought you were talking about. Cam timimg is another subject all together.

Cam timing is what I was wondering. I know in old 460 Ford engines, the cams were retarded from the factory and advancing them 1 tooth really brought the engine to life. Now, looking at the 650, horsepower peaks at about 8100rpm and 50hp. Like I said before, I never see those revs. I'm trying to maximize the fuel efficiency of this bike, while not trying to sacrafice highway riding. I want to mod it for more torque and slightly gear up the final sprockets. That way I'm not using the revs nearly as much down the highway.

I also know that in the years my bike was made (1979) emission standards had already ruined a lot of engines (hence the cam in the Ford 460). They forced things like lower compression into previously efficient engines. I don't know if the EPA had their hands in the motorcycle industry or not, but if they did the same as they did to cars, I would think it could really bring out the pep. Especially with a bump in compression.

So what are the downfalls??

Moving the cam forward 3 to 5 degrees is popular in oval- and short-trackers, to get just what you're describing: more torque, a little better midrange. If you add 1 tooth to the countersprocket also (or remove about 4-5 from the rear instead), you'll get better MPG when you're in the upper half of the powerband, but about the same in the lower-to-mid RPM (like 4000). You might just find that it idles better, too.   ;)
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2006, 10:05:01 AM »
I know this thread's been dead for a while now, but I'm looking back into the project.

3° to 5° advance in cam timing... I'm guessing I would need an adjustable cam gear to achieve this? Am I right to assume that 1 tooth would be entirely too much?
Doug

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Offline kghost

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2006, 01:29:36 PM »
Depends on the nuber of teeth  :D

I think your going to be seriously limited by the cam duration and length of the intake runners as to how much low end grunt you'll have.

Cam and intake runner length conspire against low end torque

Now for cheap and simple I'd agree with Mrieck that a bump in cam timing would help and that a bump in advance sure does subject the engine to lots of additional stress.

Best low end grunt mod? Bigger pistons with more compression.  On the 750 the wisco kit ups it to 10.25 with others available.

Power and fuel economy don't always go hand in hand. Usually you make one at the expense of the other.
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Offline Ricisan

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2006, 03:26:32 PM »
I know that on Chevy SB getting the piston/head clearance "squish or quench" down to .040 makes a big improvement.
I saw an article by Rob Muzzy where he went for a "squish" of .020. The tighter squish causes  better and more efficient burn.
The bigger gaps allow mixture to hide off to the side and are more difficult to burn. This requires more timing. JMHO

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Offline paulages

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2006, 09:14:12 PM »
i've looked around a bit for an adjustable cam sprocket for a cb650 to use with my 718cc project, to no avail. you might (and i'd love for you to figure it out for me  ;D) try the old school method of slotting the cam sprocket's bolt holes, giving a range of adjustability. i've heard of this anyway, but i would worry a bit myself about how well the sprocket would hold that position under high RPM torque.
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2006, 09:16:48 PM »
I know that on Chevy SB getting the piston/head clearance "squish or quench" down to .040 makes a big improvement.
I saw an article by Rob Muzzy where he went for a "squish" of .020. The tighter squish causes  better and more efficient burn.
The bigger gaps allow mixture to hide off to the side and are more difficult to burn. This requires more timing. JMHO

Ricisan

That's exactly right, but our SOHC4 engines don't have any squish. I was originally asking when Honda started using squish/quench in their motorcycle engines. My later questions had more to do with increasing torque.

Depends on the nuber of teeth  :D

I know, but I haven't taken my engine apart, so I don't know how many teeth my stock cam gear has (I was hoping someone had already torn a 650 down and could tell me). The short intake runners also effect torque because the short runners don't give the air enough time to build any momentum to try to fill the cylinder (since there's so much less mass, there's that much less inertia). However, simply increasing burn efficiency (getting all of the air/fuel to burn) would give more torque than stock.

Quote
i've looked around a bit for an adjustable cam sprocket for a cb650 to use with my 718cc project, to no avail. you might (and i'd love for you to figure it out for me  Grin) try the old school method of slotting the cam sprocket's bolt holes, giving a range of adjustability. i've heard of this anyway, but i would worry a bit myself about how well the sprocket would hold that position under high RPM torque.

Do you know how many teeth the sprocket has? I wouldn't think having someone machine the bolt holes wouldn't be too terribly expensive.
Doug

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2006, 10:47:38 PM »
Depending on how much adjustment you need, just slotting the holes with a file will work fine. Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline paulages

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2006, 12:01:32 AM »
Quote
Do you know how many teeth the sprocket has? I wouldn't think having someone machine the bolt holes wouldn't be too terribly expensive.

good point. it's a 44 tooth. i'll look some more. remember, it's a hy-vo type chain.
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Offline kghost

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2006, 12:11:46 AM »
I'm curious.

Is the point to do it as cheaply as possible?

Seems to me a better way to go would be a different grind on the cam leaving the exhaust duration the same.

Opening the intake early while retaining the same valve overlap.

Increasing the total lift across the board.

Stretching the intakes to about 1 1/2 thier current length.

Course if you want maximum efficiency what about a fuel injection system or some way of increasing and improving fuel atomization?

Uniform small droplets. The carbs on these bikes aint the best at doing that.
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2006, 09:42:11 AM »
I'm curious.

Is the point to do it as cheaply as possible?

Seems to me a better way to go would be a different grind on the cam leaving the exhaust duration the same.

Opening the intake early while retaining the same valve overlap.

Increasing the total lift across the board.

Stretching the intakes to about 1 1/2 thier current length.

Course if you want maximum efficiency what about a fuel injection system or some way of increasing and improving fuel atomization?

Uniform small droplets. The carbs on these bikes aint the best at doing that.

I don't know anything about camshafts so it'd be hard for me to know exactly what I would want in a regrind. It's way too expensive for me to try a number of different cams.

Stretching the intake manifolds could be doable, but I'd have to modify the airbox (I don't want to go with pods because of the added expense). I doubt it'd be too terribly effective, however, until they get to be about 3x their current length. The frame wouldn't allow that.

I'd absolutely LOVE to inject it with a Megasquirt unit, but it's currently too expensive. Also, the microSquirt is only in a beta stage, so it's probably kind of buggy.

I'll probably try to add some kind of carb screens to help break up the larger droplets of fuel because I can see that these carbs are old tech and not the best at atomization. That's one of the reasons I wanted to somehow increase combustion efficiency and compression. I may get a set of metricmechanic's Surface Turbulence Valves, depending on the price. Mike Holler's PowreLynz are also an option.
Doug

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2006, 06:56:25 PM »
I know this thread's been dead for a while now, but I'm looking back into the project.

3° to 5° advance in cam timing... I'm guessing I would need an adjustable cam gear to achieve this? Am I right to assume that 1 tooth would be entirely too much?

Divide (360/[number of teeth]) to find how many degrees-per-tooth your sprocket delivers. Then slot the holes accordingly to get the 3-5 degrees "play room".
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline paulages

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2006, 03:37:25 PM »
half a tooth on a 44 tooth would yield about 4 degrees. seems like a small slot. hondaman and mreick, could the 550 be advanced that much with stock settings?
paul
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Offline 736cc

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2006, 03:46:07 PM »
Honda 4 valves 79 and up were "pent-roof" combustion chambers (whatever that means)

Offline paulages

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2006, 04:55:43 PM »
don't know what that means either, but the 650 is a true hemi combustion chamber.
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Offline scunny

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2006, 05:08:04 PM »
However, the old designs could no longer cope with the pressure for more power, less emissions, lower fuel consumption. Today virtually every modern engine uses multiple valves for each cylinder, driven by two or more camshafts and almost all of them use the pent-roof design in some variation.

The advantages of the pent roof combustion chamber – once one has bitten the bullet and accepted the greater cost and complexity of manufacturing – can be summarised as follows:

The valves, canted at an angle of about 45% on opposite sides of the centre-line can have a much larger diameter and an excellent port shape is obtained. This gives high volumetric efficiency. Using two valves for the inlet and exhaust improves this still further, since the area of four valves will always be greater than two, and it is possible to combine good breathing and economy and low exhaust emissions. A look at the two DOHC2000 engines fitted to the Scorpio, the 8V and 16V, confirms this. Both engines have identical bore and stroke (86mm), both have compressions ratios of 9,8:1 and both have identical engine management (EECV) and contactless ignition (EDIS). The 8 valve delivers 115 PS at 5,500 rpm and the 16 valve 136 PS at 6,500 rpm while the torque is raised from 167 Nm @ 2,500 rpm to 175 Nm @ 4,200 rpm. These engines are a clear demonstration of the advantage of multi-valve designs.

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2006, 06:54:55 PM »
half a tooth on a 44 tooth would yield about 4 degrees. seems like a small slot. hondaman and mreick, could the 550 be advanced that much with stock settings?

The 4 degree setting (forward) would move the torque peak forward (toward lower RPM) about 1000 RPM. Moving it back 4 degrees will make it come in later, about by the same 1000 RPM (actually a little less, more like 800 RPM, because of other factors). Moving it forward makes the bike seem stronger all the time, because the torque is more available to you in normal driving ranges. The peak power, though, will be a little less at higher RPM unless the pipes are also changed to an effective scavenging design: this is true in both situations, forward and back.

To improve horsepower at higher RPM after moving the cam forward, while still keeping the newfound lower-end torque, try richening the main jet by about 10% and then drop the needles 1 notch in the carbs. If the "notch", or power drop between the lower torque peak and the higher HP peak becomes objectionable, modify the spark advancer by either using lighter springs or by reducing the total advance, but then add the difference as static (idle) advance. This will brighten up the midrange, but might end up requiring higher octane fuel.

To modify the advancer for less total advance, bend in the tabs that stop the weights at full advance. Try to do it equally on both sides; it can be done with a small ballpeen hammer and an anvil. When you put it back into the bike, run RPM to 3000 and see where it stops: it should be early. Then advance the points plate until it reaches full advance at 3000 RPM: at idle the advance will be more than normal. An overall change of 5 degrees should be your maximum.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline paulages

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2006, 09:49:59 PM »
thanks. i might play around with this stuff on the stock 550 motor, before dropping the 718cc in.
paul
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2007, 05:50:37 PM »
I was just looking at my CB5550 head and concidering the porting project for this winter.
I'm also installing a 605 big bore kit and a megacycles cam.
Would you advise plaining the head to achive a squish area? If so, how much material should be removed?

Thanks
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2007, 06:15:41 PM »
I was just looking at my CB5550 head and concidering the porting project for this winter.
I'm also installing a 605 big bore kit and a megacycles cam.
Would you advise plaining the head to achive a squish area? If so, how much material should be removed?

Thanks
Jimmy
If you want tighter squish deck the cylinder. That big bore should have a square shoulder too. As to how much you have to measure how far in the hole is the piston and how thick the head gasket(comppressed) is. You should aim for .040 or so piston to head.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2007, 06:45:33 PM »
thanks. i might play around with this stuff on the stock 550 motor, before dropping the 718cc in.

How's that 718 project going Paul? Cheers, Terry. ;D
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So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

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Offline paulages

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2007, 07:45:37 PM »
thanks. i might play around with this stuff on the stock 550 motor, before dropping the 718cc in.

How's that 718 project going Paul? Cheers, Terry. ;D

mockup's done... everything reciprocates properly, but i still gotta take .030" off of the shoulder of the piston to account for rod stretch. there's only about .020 clearance right now. right now the crank assembly is being balanced, and a couple of other small case mods are being finished, then it's on with the actual build. dan is REALLY slow, so i gave up on having it done for this riding season a long time ago.  ::)

wish you were over here, so i could smoke your 750 stocker with it when it's done...  ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2007, 07:49:41 PM »
thanks. i might play around with this stuff on the stock 550 motor, before dropping the 718cc in.

How's that 718 project going Paul? Cheers, Terry. ;D

wish you were over here, so i could smoke your 750 stocker with it when it's done...  ;D ;D ;D

You wish!  ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

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Offline MRieck

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2007, 08:03:18 PM »
thanks. i might play around with this stuff on the stock 550 motor, before dropping the 718cc in.

How's that 718 project going Paul? Cheers, Terry. ;D

wish you were over here, so i could smoke your 750 stocker with it when it's done...  ;D ;D ;D

You wish!  ;D
I'll bet! ;)
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Offline paulages

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Re: Squish/Quench?
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2007, 08:41:58 PM »
let's see...

cb750K0 claimed BHP: 67
'79cb650 claimed BHP: 63
           
throw in a 5mm overbore, 10.5 compression ratio, mike reick porting, 29mm carbs, and a lightened and balanced crank? i'll double mike's bet!  ;D ;D ;D
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