Author Topic: Alien Motion Batteries????? (Read 11297 times)

I Zombie · « **on:** February 06, 2012, 09:25:44 AM »

Does anyone here have any experience with these? http://www.alienmotion.com/html/products_-_alien_motion_batteries.html
The looks like a great deal compared to other Lithium batteries, price wise.

Ryan66 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 06, 2012, 02:42:16 PM »

Ya id be curious about that 12 cell for my 550. Wonder if itll power everything and keep the bike charged. seems to be enough

I Zombie · « **Reply #2 on:** February 06, 2012, 02:52:07 PM »

from what i could find online, they work well, but cold starts with lithium batteries is alil sketchy

Ryan66 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 06, 2012, 02:53:43 PM »

Quote from: I Zombie on February 06, 2012, 02:52:07 PM

from what i could find online, they work well, but cold starts with lithium batteries is alil sketchy

Whys that?

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #4 on:** February 06, 2012, 02:54:08 PM »

I like this thread, a Zombie asking about Aliens.....

I Zombie · « **Reply #5 on:** February 06, 2012, 03:33:58 PM »

something about the batteries needing to warm up, & hey the undead still need help from alien technology

TwoTired · « **Reply #6 on:** February 06, 2012, 04:20:53 PM »

I didn't see anything in the "buy me" add about balance taps, and/or if their charger uses them.

They'll work when new. Keeping them charged like new is another matter, particularly the 12 cell model.
It will have a 4s3p configuration. That's 4 cells in series and 3 of those wired in parallel. Lots of opportunity for cell imbalance. If/when they go out of balance, you need access to each individual cell connection to re-balance them to the same power level.

Further, if you allow them to deplete below about 9V, the cells can become permanently damaged and lose capacity, that even balance charging can't remedy.
When they approach depletion, the voltage output drops quite rapidly.

Consumer devices that use lithium technology batteries usually have a low voltage sense, which stops power drain at a set low voltage level to protect the battery. I don't know of any SOHC4 charging system that incorporates that.

Cheers,

dave500 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 07, 2012, 01:42:33 AM »

i never had any trouble with the good old lead/acid,unless its weight reduction your chasing?ill wager those have cheap internals from asia?and you can take the ratings and specs with how ever many grains of salt you wish.

Ryan66 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 07, 2012, 04:31:09 AM »

Quote from: dave500 on February 07, 2012, 01:42:33 AM

i never had any trouble with the good old lead/acid,unless its weight reduction your chasing?ill wager those have cheap internals from asia?and you can take the ratings and specs with how ever many grains of salt you wish.

Not so much weight savings but to be able to hide a battery under a single cafe seat hump.

lrutt · « **Reply #9 on:** February 07, 2012, 05:17:18 AM »

Check out those Shorai LiFe batteries. I replace my 7lb AGM battery in my XR650L with a 1.2lb Lithium Iron (LiFe) battery. It is about 1/3 the size and a fraction of the weight. Has more CCA's than the AGM (135 vs 125), can be kept charged with a standard battery tender (not one that desulfates).

It is absolutely amazing how that tiny battery spins that big single over so effortlessly. You should give those a look.

I was able to eliminate over 12lbs of weight that comprised this big electrical compartment that hung off the left rear of the bike, put all those bits under the seat, and save over 5lbs on the battery itself. And the price wasn't bad at $103. Got mine from Rocky Mountain ATV.

There are several different sizes and capacities of these Shorai batteries so check it out.

I Zombie · « **Reply #10 on:** February 07, 2012, 06:26:47 AM »

Thank you all for the your input & info, was looking @ Ballistic Batteries when I found these. The price seemed too good & with no real info online, I had my doubts.

Ryan66 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 07, 2012, 07:01:06 AM »

Ya ive also been eye balling the shorai and ballistic batteries too. Twotired seems to be a very good resource for them and also the maintaince thats involved with them

eldar · « **Reply #12 on:** February 07, 2012, 09:50:50 AM »

A lithium based battery that has multiple cells requires being balanced. A standard tender will not do that. To prevent eventual cell damage, you need a charger that will balance the cells. Also, as the sohc charging system is completely incapable of doing that, these batteries should be balanced periodically.
I have not seen any of these batteries with a built in balancer. Keep that in mind.
Also, keep in mind a lead acid based battery will absorb voltage variations better.

TwoTired · « **Reply #13 on:** February 07, 2012, 11:52:07 AM »

I got the Shorai LFX14A2-BS12. It has 210 CCA, and the post polarity/position was correct for the CB550's "home" residence.

It does have the Balance tap port, and Shorai sells a charger to mate with it for periodic balancing/charging.
I didn't buy their charger, only because I have more high end chargers that I use for Electric RC airplanes. But, I had to make a port adapter/jumper connector to do so.

It is 2.28x4.45x3.50 inches. ...Not that I really care about the size in a stock CB550. But, it's 1.68 lbs. I haven't worked out the price per pound.

All but two of my lead acid batteries aged out. I wanted one that wouldn't kill itself simply sitting there charged, like the lead acid and gel types do with time. I have more bikes than I can ride with regularity. The battery tenders on standard batteries help greatly, (and I have more of those than MC batteries at the moment). But, acid eventually destroys them whether they are in service or not.
So, I decided to do some experimentation with the LiFeO4 battery. So far, so good. I would want to use a vreg with a lowered high voltage trip point if I were to ride on a long X-country cruise where the battery is likely to be held at fully peak charged. I set one of the stock mechanical vregs up with a 14.4 trip point, just in case. I suppose there are some electronic regulators that still have a high voltage trip adjustment on them. But, I know of no specific models, apart from the stock mechanical.

I'm not at all concerned with "voltage spike" folklore. Being capable of 210 CCA, it's fully charged impedance is actually lower than both the lead acid and Gel types with lower CCAs. But, I'm just a retired electronic engineer with 30 years practice and experience. So, what could I possibly know that an internet chat room couldn't vote to change?

/jk Anybody looked at the inductive kickback spikes from the starter motor or ignition system?

As stated before, the lithium tech needs a smart battery management system for best lifetime performance. But, the smarts can come from between the ears of the rider if he has the essential tool of an on board voltmeter, (so he never lets the voltage fall too low). Kinda like looking at a fuel gauge or oil pressure guage, periodically. You can re-balance the battery during an oil change/tune up of the machine. It's a workable alternative. Just different.

Cheers,

Ryan66 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 07, 2012, 01:20:31 PM »

I would love to be able to pick your brain whenever i needed to lol. I know nothing aboput wiring or electronics my weak point. Im struggling most with that on my build. Trying to learn and retain and people like you on this site help alot. Your def a high point of this site two thumbs up sir

phil71 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 07, 2012, 01:26:14 PM »

so, if you don't mind unreliable battery performance, and premature failure, these are the hot ticket!

TwoTired · « **Reply #16 on:** February 07, 2012, 04:48:18 PM »

Quote from: phil71 on February 07, 2012, 01:26:14 PM

so, if you don't mind unreliable battery performance, and premature failure, these are the hot ticket!

If you are unwilling or unable to properly maintain your machine or its components, can you really expect anything but failure?
New technologies often require new skills as one learns to use them.

Almost all devices come with an owner's or manufacturer's manual for proper care, if from reputable sources. Ignore those and you can expect unreliability and premature failure from nearly anything. imo

lrutt · « **Reply #17 on:** February 07, 2012, 05:00:07 PM »

Quote from: phil71 on February 07, 2012, 01:26:14 PM

so, if you don't mind unreliable battery performance, and premature failure, these are the hot ticket!

These Shorai batteries are designed for powersports replacements. It's not adapted and modified. Look at the cases they are mounted in etc. There are plenty out there that have been power bikes and atv's for over a year now with no issues so it seems to be very low risk. But hey, you can buy whatever you want, not my problem.

scottly · « **Reply #18 on:** February 07, 2012, 05:47:42 PM »

Quote from: TwoTired on February 07, 2012, 11:52:07 AM

I'm not at all concerned with "voltage spike" folklore. Being capable of 210 CCA, it's fully charged impedance is actually lower than both the lead acid and Gel types with lower CCAs. But, I'm just a retired electronic engineer with 30 years practice and experience. So, what could I possibly know that an internet chat room couldn't vote to change? /jk

Do you have any actual measurements to back up those claims? Hey, what do I know, I'm only an electronics test technician with over 40 years of real-world experience.

TwoTired · « **Reply #19 on:** February 07, 2012, 10:04:57 PM »

Quote from: scottly on February 07, 2012, 05:47:42 PM

Quote from: TwoTired on February 07, 2012, 11:52:07 AM

I'm not at all concerned with "voltage spike" folklore. Being capable of 210 CCA, it's fully charged impedance is actually lower than both the lead acid and Gel types with lower CCAs. But, I'm just a retired electronic engineer with 30 years practice and experience. So, what could I possibly know that an internet chat room couldn't vote to change? /jk
Do you have any actual measurements to back up those claims? Hey, what do I know, I'm only an electronics test technician with over 40 years of real-world experience.

Do you?

scottly · « **Reply #20 on:** February 08, 2012, 05:32:12 PM »

Quote from: TwoTired on February 07, 2012, 10:04:57 PM

Do you?

Yes

The battery under test was a 2.3 Ahr LiFe, 4 cell unit. Ambient temperature was 65F. The battery had been discharged to 11.0V, with a load of 2 amps. With the load removed, the battery voltage was 11.4V. A charger with a 2 amp rating was used.
At 53 minutes into the charge cycle, the voltage was 14.36, and the current was 2.1A.
At 54 minutes, voltage was 14.49, and current was 1.2A.
At 55 minutes, voltage was 14.52, and current was .762A.
At 56 minutes, voltage was 14.54, and current was .377A.
At 57 minutes, voltage was 14.57, and current was .374A.
At 58 minutes, voltage was 14.67, and current was .375A.
At 59 minutes, voltage was 14.83, and current was .362A.
At 60 minutes, voltage was 14.98, and current was .357A. The test was terminated a this time.

TwoTired · « **Reply #21 on:** February 08, 2012, 06:24:11 PM »

Quote from: scottly on February 08, 2012, 05:32:12 PM

Yes
The battery under test was a 2.3 Ahr LiFe, 4 cell unit. Ambient temperature was 65F. The battery had been discharged to 11.0V, with a load of 2 amps. With the load removed, the battery voltage was 11.4V. A charger with a 2 amp rating was used.
At 53 minutes into the charge cycle, the voltage was 14.36, and the current was 2.1A.
At 54 minutes, voltage was 14.49, and current was 1.2A.
At 55 minutes, voltage was 14.52, and current was .762A.
At 56 minutes, voltage was 14.54, and current was .377A.
At 57 minutes, voltage was 14.57, and current was .374A.
At 58 minutes, voltage was 14.67, and current was .375A.
At 59 minutes, voltage was 14.83, and current was .362A.
At 60 minutes, voltage was 14.98, and current was .357A. The test was terminated a this time.

Nice data collection. And, not really any surprises there. But, I'm unsure what the goal was?
I thought the topic of contention was "Voltage spike", or transient immunity? Perhaps our interpretations are different? Power supplies I've designed usually have specifications for both tolerance and emission of both voltage and current transients/spikes.
Anyway, I interpret your data to show that the battery can be overcharged with the wrong charger that has no voltage trip limitations to reduce charge rate or discontinue charging when battery has reached full capacity.
I'll point out that the SOHC4 Vreg would normally stop feeding charge power into the battery when the voltage reached 14.5V, which by your data collecting timeline would have been at about the 54.5-55 minute mark.
A lead acid or Gel cell can be overcharged as well, I've seen as high as 17v on one (also with a "dumb" charger). The cell was losing electrolyte (bubbling) pretty fast, too. The Lead acid, still had some useful life left, the gel cell was done for.

I will note that you did "abuse" the battery, as most LiFe battery manufacturers state that charging should be terminated at 14.4V, with your posted table, that would have been at 54 minutes (about).

Did you measure battery capacity after the overcharge with a discharge time/rate test to see if damage occurred and the pack remained viable? Did you check to see if the individual cells remained in balance or if some were charged at a higher V level than others? Did the pack maintain the final V level noted while at rest? Had the battery pack temperature increased? If so, to what level? Was the pack at ambient temp when beginning of the test?

Also, it would appear that your charger is a constant voltage type rather than a constant current type. Do you know at what voltage level the current would drop to zero or what the open circuit voltage is?

Just curious... Have you ever worked as an engineering tech?

Cheers,

bollingball · « **Reply #22 on:** February 08, 2012, 07:01:17 PM »

I love reading this stuff.

Ken

scottly · « **Reply #23 on:** February 08, 2012, 07:14:14 PM »

Quote from: TwoTired on February 08, 2012, 06:24:11 PM

Nice data collection. And, not really any surprises there. But, I'm unsure what the goal was?
I thought the topic of contention was "Voltage spike", or transient immunity? Perhaps our interpretations are different? Power supplies I've designed usually have specifications for both tolerance and emission of both voltage and current transients/spikes.

Monitor your voltage on the battery, once it has recharged from the drain due to starting, with the mechanical regulator, and you will likely see the spikes. Use a scope if you need proof.
Ohm's Law would show that the internal resistance of the LiFe battery I tested was 6.83 ohms at the 53 minute mark, and 41.96 ohms at the 60 minute mark. When the mechanical regulator switches to full output, the voltage climbs faster than the regulator can respond, since it only takes less than .4A to drive the battery above 14.4V. On my 750, I saw spikes near 16V!! This is why I switched to a solid state regulator.

Yes, I have worked as an engineering tech, as well as a technical support/field service engineer...

Ryan66 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 09, 2012, 04:51:30 AM »

I now feel smarter for having read all that lol!

I Zombie · « **Reply #25 on:** February 09, 2012, 05:58:53 AM »

So in simplest terms, with the right charger & voltage reg. lithium batteries will work in our applications? Any truth to what I've heard about them being "fussy" for lack of a better term @ lower temps, below 50 degrees F?

chickenman_26 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 09, 2012, 07:05:00 AM »

Quote from: I Zombie on February 09, 2012, 05:58:53 AM

Any truth to what I've heard about them being "fussy" for lack of a better term @ lower temps, below 50 degrees F?

Yes. I've been testing all three sizes and different capacity Shorai batteries in various bikes for more than a year. Below around 50 degrees, if the bike is cold soaked (exposed to ambient temps overnight), it's possible, depending on the engine configuration and oil viscosity, that you may get no more than a half turn of the crankshaft if you turn on the key and thumb the start button. V-twins and other bikes that load the starter heavily seem to produce this symptom more than SOHC bikes using the LIPO4 batteries. The trick is to "warm up" the battery by leaving the headlamp burning for a minute or so. Then the battery will fire the bike up with no problems. It is a bit scary though, to be in an unfamiliar town a thousand miles from home and have a no-start at 5 am on a Sunday morning. BTDT with a LFX18 in an Italian V-twin. I gave it another try after letting it sit for a bit and was on my way.

Stu

Ryan66 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 09, 2012, 07:25:50 AM »

Quote from: I Zombie on February 09, 2012, 05:58:53 AM

So in simplest terms, with the right charger & voltage reg. lithium batteries will work in our applications? Any truth to what I've heard about them being "fussy" for lack of a better term @ lower temps, below 50 degrees F?

According to twotired the regualtor issue isnt an issue. Just proper maintance and upkeep of the battery seem to be the only issue

chickenman_26 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 09, 2012, 11:48:43 AM »

Here's a picture of the Battery Bug mounted on my CB500 with the Shorai battery. Note the battery voltage is 13.6 - engine NOT running. This battery normally starts the bike faster than you can get your finger off the start button. I haven't had any cold start problems at all on the SOHC. Though the battery bug does show lower performance (based on cranking voltage) at colder temps, the bike doesn't seem to notice.

Stu

brokenspoke · « **Reply #29 on:** February 09, 2012, 12:14:01 PM »

So even "cold soaked", one would have no problem kick starting it, correct? That voltage seems plenty.

bollingball · « **Reply #30 on:** February 09, 2012, 12:30:36 PM »

chickenman: Which model battery bug did you get. I have a (AGM) and saw they have one for that but for large deep cycle batteries.

Ken
PS looks like the bb series would be correct is it water proof?

EDU · « **Reply #31 on:** February 09, 2012, 02:09:28 PM »

I don't know much about anything but I can tell you this, the LiPo batteries I've had never had any issues. And I would only start the bike every 3-4 months!! Never had anything bigger than a 4-cell either.

Having said that, they were all used on modern 600cc 4cyl sportbikes (CBR600RR road, R6 2007 race and now ZX6R2010 race). They dropped almost no charge over that period of time so I didn't even unplug them. And they ALWAYS started the bikes issues.

My ZX6R has an issue at the moment and it won't charge the battery... so last 4 track days I had to bring a charger/balancer with me just in case. Never needed it. I would charge the battery the night before and run it all day long, starting the bike before every session with no issues but then again I have no running lights/brake lights/blinkers/etc on that bike. I'd had to charge it again when I got home, obviously but I was impressed by how long they last on a bike fuel injected bike running a ton of electronics!

I have always had the Motolab batteries but I've also heard good things about the Shorai. If you do get the Motolab ones, make sure to order their charger/balancer too. It works really well and it only cost me $30 more from memory.

I have recently bought a CB500 and I think I'll be running the 8-cell on that bike. Or at least try!

chickenman_26 · « **Reply #32 on:** February 09, 2012, 05:42:14 PM »

Quote from: bollingball on February 09, 2012, 12:30:36 PM

chickenman: Which model battery bug did you get. I have a (AGM) and saw they have one for that but for large deep cycle batteries.

Ken
PS looks like the bb series would be correct is it water proof?

Ken,
You want the Powersports model. It has one long, straight cord rather than two short coiled ones, and it uses an algorithm that properly tests the small batteries used in bikes. Also, the ones they're shipping now have a neat backlighting that comes on after engine start and goes off when you shut the bike down. Yeah, it's waterproof. Linky below...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0029VY4G4/ref=asc_df_B0029VY4G41893973?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=asn&creative=395093&creativeASIN=B0029VY4G4

And here's a magazine write up on it for more on how it works.

http://www.argusanalyzers.com/company-info/news-room/news-and-reviews/news-article/archive/2009/07/10/article/wingworld-magazine-the-most-frequently-asked-battery-question-and-an-answer-from-battery-bug-12.html

Stu O

chickenman_26 · « **Reply #33 on:** February 09, 2012, 05:56:17 PM »

Quote from: brokenspoke on February 09, 2012, 12:14:01 PM

So even "cold soaked", one would have no problem kick starting it, correct? That voltage seems plenty.

Correct. Compared to the starting motor, the ignition consumes very little power. But it really won't be much of an issue. Just leave the lights on while you put on your helmet, then fire it up. That's just for the first start of the day. It'll behave normally after that.

Stu

News:

Author Topic: Alien Motion Batteries????? (Read 11297 times)

bollingball

bollingball