Author Topic: CB550: Flat spot better but still poor mileage. STILL RICH :( See page 4  (Read 17293 times)

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Offline Scott S

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 1971 CB500 with a '76 CB550 engine and 087A carbs. MAC 4-1, Uni filter in stock air box, Pamco ignition. Carbs are cleaned and sync'ed, engine is tuned and timed, etc, etc.

 The bike starts easily and pulls hard, but I'm experiencing what sounds very much like the flat spot described in the tech articles in the 550 section:

"The result: between 3500-4800 RPM (or so), the mixture was slipping from richer-than-normal to normal while the spark advancer had already reached full timing. It made the torque curve flatten out in that range, where most bikes are just getting stronger.

Here’s some simple things you can try to smooth over this “smoothie” feature.

Raise the jet needle in the carb slides one notch. Install a 10-size smaller main jet at the same time (5 size smaller on last-year CB550). Switch from the standard D7E (NGK) or X22E (ND) sparkplugs to the D8E (X24E) at this same time. Check the color of your plugs to make sure it does not get too lean, which can happen if you’ve installed indivdual air filters and/or headers that actually work (most did not), or longer, megaphone-type mufflers."


 The only difference is that I feel it on deceleration and then getting back on the throttle, not under initial acceleration,  or when coming to a complete stop. I have to "clear the throats" of the carbs, then it's fine.
 I'm told it smells rich and, to me, that's what it feels like the carbs are doing....loading up a little.
 I'm also getting poor mileage; about 28 mpg vs. mid-30's to low 40's when I had the CB500 engine/carbs in this same bike with same exhaust, filter, etc.

 My initial thought was to LOWER the needle and/or a smaller slow jet to lean it out some. However, Hondaman states to RAISE the needle and lean it out with the main jet.

 I'd say the area most affected is between ~3700-4200 rpm. If I keep it above 4K, it's fine other than the MPG. I feel like I should be able to creep around a side street in 2nd or 3rd gear at ~3800 without it loading up horribly, right? The CB500 would do it.

 I need suggestions on which way to go here. I also noticed that premium gas helps the laoding up issue a (very) small amount, but the mileage still sucks.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 05:59:05 PM by Scott S »
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 05:28:59 PM »
This sounds a lot like leaking O-rings where those carb castings meet the head. When it leaks there, the carbs see less air flow than the engine, so they mix at a richer rate. The carbs on these bikes run about 12:1 at idle pulse rate, dropping toward 14:1 at around 1/3 throttle. So, the leaks make the lower-speed circuits mix all the way up to 1/2 throttle or so.

If the idle air screws are also mis-set (too far out), this will make it run very rich all the way into 2/3 throttle range. I'd suggest trying to turn those screws inward, below the normal settings, to see if it helps: that will point to the vacuum leak possibility easier than any other test you might try.

All of this presumes the float levels are normal and the jet sizes are normal, as a starting point.

All this said, the 550 does have a natural flat spot. The above-quoted Tech Tips refer to changes one might make to a normally-running bike. Maybe starting in that direction first will help?

You didn't mention a few other things, which I'll hazard to ask:
1. What coils are you using?
2. What is the resistance of the sparkplug caps on your spark wires?
3. Of special note on the Mid-Four: what is your battery voltage?

The reasons for these 3 questions revolve around the Ignition question. A weak spark will aggravate a marginally rich condition.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline Scott S

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 05:48:19 PM »
 Coils are new 5 ohm coils from Z1 with ~2,000 miles on them. I'm getting 4.5+ ohms when I test them. Caps are new NKG also from Z1 and plugs are new NGK D7EA. I have not done a plug chop yet. I'm still on the first ~350 miles since the swap.

 The air screws were initally 1 turn out and the problem was very pronounced. I'm now at 2 turns out and that smoothed it out some, but I feel like I shouldn't be that far out.

 I will check for air leaks at the manifold, but those O-rings are new as well and I don't have any of the common air leak symptoms that I'm used to.

 The bike charges well and the battery keeps a chargfe. After sitting for 24 hours, I just got 12.59v.

 What about the poor mileage?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 06:06:35 PM by Scott S »
'71 CB500 K0
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Offline phil71

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 05:59:57 PM »
that bike is not the most fuel efficient .. running right, I wouldn't expect much more than 40mpg during mild mannered riding. You're also reading suggestions for eliminating the flat spot that pertain to a stock bike.. you are using aftermarket exhaust and air filter, so you've got to play with it some.

Offline Scott S

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 06:08:11 PM »
 I understand that, but which way? Was my initial thought correct, to lower the needle or a smaller slow jet? To me, it's a mid-range or low speed issue.

 I used to get 90-95 miles before reserve, now I'm hitting it at 65-70 miles.
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Offline phil71

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 06:11:57 PM »
It sounds like a rich condition.. and that is odd, because with pipes and airbox work, I'd be expecting lean. It also sounds like it's happening right around the hand-off point from the slow jet to the main jet.. are they bigger than stock now?

Offline Scott S

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 06:23:03 PM »
 I "thought" they were all stock.  I do know for a fact that they genuine Keihin,, so I just assumed they were stock. I've seen aftermarket jets and they look completely different. I may pull one of the outside float bowls this weekend and see if I can make a positive ID on the slow and main jet sizes.
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Offline Scott S

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2012, 03:19:18 AM »
 And to clarify, the "flat spot" or loading up is there when I either:

A) Roll back on the throttle after backing off for, say, slower traffic, and then rolling back on (NOT snapping the throttle....I know there's no accelerator pump). This allows the bike to get below 4K rpm and I either need to gear down (and I can still feel the sluggishness) or blip the throttle to clear it out.

 Or,
B) Coming to a complete or near complete stop. Again, I have to blip the throttle and let the bike "clear it's throat". Idle will then be normal and the bike is OK, but I need to clear it out slightly again to make for a smooth take-off.

 Plus, I'm really curious about the mileage. Are others with a '76-ish 550 getting less than 30mpg, too?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Danno

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 03:25:49 AM »
if they are the same carbs you had on your 500 then they have 40 slows and 100 mains however the exhaust you are using is not much looser than stock so if it were me I would put 38 slows in and make sure they are the same length as the ones you took out

also as hondaman has said and there is a high likelyhood he is correct that the orings on the carb runners to the engine are leaking
 
an easy way to test this is put sealer around the carb runners next to the head and ride it if it improves that is probably it  make sure you remove the sealer after you are done testing as most sealers will give up and burn in that location if left on too long i use grease for testing as it is easy to clean off with brake clean after i am done testing and I don't leave it on long enough to catch fire
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Offline Scott S

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 03:44:41 AM »
I will test the manifolds/o-rings for leaks in a few days (work schedule sucks right now). They o-rings are new, though. I'm listening....and will take suggestions!
'71 CB500 K0
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Offline Scott S

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 03:47:50 AM »
 Oh, and the carbs are NOT the CB500 carbs. They are 087A carbs that were sold to me with the 550 engine. I beleive them to be the correct carbs for that engine and I know the jets are genuine Keihin jets.
 I will try to confirm the sizes this weekend as well.
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Offline bwaller

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 03:51:47 AM »
For the moment the focus is on jetting, forget mileage, it will sort itself out.

If you replaced those manifold o-rings with the right part, fine. There was no damage to either surface and the o-ring was thick enough to more than fill the groove? Spraying some material around the area at idle should give an rpm difference if they're leaking. Hondaman mentioned float levels. This can take a while to do correctly but is an essential step before changing jets.

Otherwise it does sound like it's running rich, but it's not going to solve itself, pull the plugs and see what you have. After this time those plugs will need replacing to do a proper plug chop so get a new set and make that your next priority.


Offline nsargeant

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 06:36:19 AM »
scott,

I can't offer much insight on your original question but I usually get right around 40 mpg + or - a couple mpg when i calculate it out.  I always get 100 miles out of a tank before i switch it over to reserve if i haven't found a gas station yet.  I have gotten 112 miles on a tank once before it started cutting out before flipping to reserve.

nathan

Offline becken

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 02:59:40 PM »
I did all the mods recommended by Hondaman to include drilling out the emulsifier tubes. He says to drill out the top two sets of holes to .039, but I wound up drilling all of mine to .039. Made a real big difference in the midrange running and acceleration.
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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 04:19:55 PM »
For the moment the focus is on jetting, forget mileage, it will sort itself out.

If you replaced those manifold o-rings with the right part, fine. There was no damage to either surface and the o-ring was thick enough to more than fill the groove? Spraying some material around the area at idle should give an rpm difference if they're leaking. Hondaman mentioned float levels. This can take a while to do correctly but is an essential step before changing jets.

Otherwise it does sound like it's running rich, but it's not going to solve itself, pull the plugs and see what you have. After this time those plugs will need replacing to do a proper plug chop so get a new set and make that your next priority.
+1 on the floats(maybe heavy w/ fuel?) & needle valves and seats.
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Offline Scott S

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 05:49:43 PM »
 The needle valves and seats were cleaned and lapped in and then tested with a vacuum. Still....who knows?

 My plan is to check the o-rings, try adjusting the air screws a little again and pulling one of the float bowls to confirm jet sizes.

 I just want to make sure that I'm going the right way if I lower raise the needle/smaller main if my issues are as described above.
 My initial thought was to LOWER the needle and/or a smaller slow jet.

 Hondaman, where are you !?!?
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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2012, 10:18:54 PM »
A thought I'd try, if it were here....remove that Unifilter (foam type, right?) and see what changes it makes, running with no filter.

Often, the Unifilter has popped up here in posts on the 500/550/350F bikes that were struggling with over-rich conditions of several sorts. This description about it loading up during deceleration 'feels' like an over-oiled filter (from this distance, anyway - a little hard to tell w/o grabbing a handful myself...). I remember reading several posts to TwoTired, who has a whole corral of 550 bikes, concerning this issue. He might have some more insight?

On many of the tiny dirt bikes I get here (50-70cc-ish size) that have had those foam filters added, I have to either wash the filters in gasoline, dry, and put them on just like that, or else drop the jet sizes to get them to clean out. That just causes lost power, which they can seldom afford.

Usually, the MAC pipes make little difference. They are too short to have any true header effect, and the reduced backpressure from the open baffle design just makes the midrange run a bit lean. In those bikes, I raise the needles a notch to try to help, while keeping an eye toward WOT mixtures by direct road testing. If you go from a large throttle setting that seems to be cleaning out and surging well, then closing the throttle momentarily and reopening it makes for a big, dirty stumble, the mainjet is too small and the air screw is too rich. The Mid Fours are a bit picky about this 3500-5500 RPM mix range. They need to come out of their idle range a bit lean, getting richer toward midrange. When the intake valves leak a little, the flat spot gets worse, quick (BTW: is the compression even across all cylinders, with the throttle held WOT during cranking test?).

Advancing the cam about 1/2 tooth is a better fix than chasing jetting, though, even if it is a little esoteric. The issue is a volumetric one: things like a worn cam chain or chain tensioner make the cam even later than the OEM setting, and with our ethanol-laced fuels this just makes a slow-burn engine of it all. The 750 also suffers this, but to a lesser extent because of the shorter carb runners. Advancing the cam 3 degrees on a 750 really changes the character of the daily-drive throttle range, and the 550 can use 5 degrees of this to good advantage.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline Scott S

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2012, 03:16:04 AM »
 I have not checked compression on this engine. Something I can do, I guess, but it runs like stink! Really strong.

 Removing the filter is an easy test. I also plan on trying to back the air screws way out....four turns or so....and then blip the throttle. If it returns to idle and doesn't hang, I'll know the slow jet is really rich. Correct?

 Will check for air leaks and confirm jet sizes this weekend.
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'81 Yamaha XS650

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2012, 07:44:50 PM »
I have not checked compression on this engine. Something I can do, I guess, but it runs like stink! Really strong.

 Removing the filter is an easy test. I also plan on trying to back the air screws way out....four turns or so....and then blip the throttle. If it returns to idle and doesn't hang, I'll know the slow jet is really rich. Correct?

 Will check for air leaks and confirm jet sizes this weekend.

That's backward: turning them out makes them richer. Turning them in shuts them off. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Scott S

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 03:21:58 AM »
 From the FAQ section here:

What happens when I turn the airscrew out - richer or leaner?
If your airscrew is on airbox side of carb, turning out will lean mixture; opposite if airscrew is on engine side of carb.

 On these carbs, the air screw is on the air box side.
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Offline Scott S

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2012, 10:24:49 AM »
 * Checked for air leaks and found none.
 * Checked timing and advanced it slightly. This seemed to help.
 *Checked jetting: 100 main and 38 slow jet. Stock for 087A, correct?
 * Fiddled with air screws and ended up at 1 3/4 turns.
 *Tried running w/o filter. It did seem to run leaner but not as crisp in the mid range.
 * Thought about cleaning Uni and running it dry, but it's pretty dry already.
 * Backed the air screws out 4 turns adfound out that the idle WILL hang or be slow to return, suggesting  that the slow jets are not too rich.

 Of all these changes, the timing had the biggest effect. That really cleaned up the flat spot or stumble, but didn't completely cure the overall rich condition.
 The plugs look horrible....really sooty...and before I continue tuning I want to change plugs. I have another set of D7EA's, but I wonder if a colder plug would help? Maybe a D8EA?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Scott S

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2012, 10:40:53 AM »
 Oh, and thoughts on maybe running a stock filter?
'71 CB500 K0
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'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Duanob

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2012, 11:08:48 AM »
Sounds like you're in for some trial and error.

I had the flat spot after putting everything together, pretty noticeable. I still do now but ever so slightly and not all the time. The hesitation only comes after cruising steady at ~4000 rpms for any length of time. But I've gotten used to it so what I do is close the throttle slightly before accelerating and no more hesitation. I think it's a nature of the 74 - 76 CB550 beast.

You might try and pull your carbs again and go through them. One more cleaning and checking everything won't hurt. Put everything back to stock. Then test ride. If it still persists and your plugs show rich condition them move your needles down one notch. test ride and recheck. it took me a few times but my plugs look perfect, the bike starts immediately even after sitting a while, and has plenty of power through the rpm range. 
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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2012, 12:57:17 PM »
I have not checked compression on this engine. Something I can do, I guess, but it runs like stink! Really strong.

 Removing the filter is an easy test. I also plan on trying to back the air screws way out....four turns or so....and then blip the throttle. If it returns to idle and doesn't hang, I'll know the slow jet is really rich. Correct?

 Will check for air leaks and confirm jet sizes this weekend.

That's backward: turning them out makes them richer. Turning them in shuts them off. ;)

We continue to disagree on this point, unfortunately.  I'm not sure why, as both the physics and my exhaust gas analyzer say that turning the air bleed screws outward makes the mixture leaner.    Further, if the air screws are hollow tipped and cross drilled, it is impossible to "shut them off" as the hollow tips and cross drilling become a bypass for air path feeding the pilot emulsion tubes (Air source is the pilot air jet orifice).

I've skimmed this thread, and have yet to learn what slide needle (Jet Needle or JN) settings were chosen for this set of carbs, and if the slide needles have the stock numbers printed upon them, or if the emulsion tube JN jet has been altered from stock.

087a carbs seem to have been a baby step toward the lean burn engines demanded by the EPA back in the day.  The UNI filters on my 550's have made the entire operating range of throttle a tad leaner (after I learned not to over oil them).  They all have stock exhaust and induction components, but are now running on the hated ethanol gas (California allows on choice in the fuel matter, thank you meddling and overbearing democrats).  But anyway, this makes the machine run a bit leaner.   My bikes tolerate this except for two issues:
1 - Throttle twist response from low RPM becomes more sensitive.   I've always maintained that the idle mixture was set over rich to accommodate throttle twist, with out adding an accelerator pump.  My metric is that the air screws are set to allow the throttle to be twisted up to 1/2 of total remaining throttle in any gear (yes, even fifth) with the engine providing reliable (if not brisk) acceleration from idle RPM.  Twist it more and you can expect stumble.  The throttle twist limitation is overcome at 4000 and above because the venturi is more dominant at supplying the low pressure in the carb throat by that air speed, which allows more reliable and steady pulling of fuel from the fuel jet pathways.
 However, an eighth (or maybe 3/16) of a turn inward on the Air bleed screws (from stock setting) restored the throttle response on my bikes.

The second issue is a far more pronounced hesitation at 3000-ish RPM.  (For my F models, anyway. My 550K is in storage, but I never experienced any hesitation at any RPM with both the stock exhaust or a 4to2 system that I ran for 15 years.  I'm not sure what the new fuel will do to this specific bike, as I've let it sit so long that it (sadly) now needs a restoration effort, as well as swing arm bushings).

If the MAC muffler is unaltered, the ones I've experienced had a similar back pressure profile to the stock 4 into 4 system used.  It *should* be ok for the 087 carbs.  However, I have no knowledge of MAC's quality control, or if there is any effort to maintain an equal pressure characteristic to the stock system, or even between their own production samples, or for that matter, eras of manufacture.  Certainly the same guy that built them in the 70s is not the same guy that builds them these days.  It may well be that the only specification of the system is that it mounts and looks the same on the OUTSIDE.  Metal cutting flash, interior hole sizes, and other details about the muffler internals are hidden from the buyer's purview.  And, when people buy solely on the basis of price or looks, QA efforts aren't rewarded and often eliminated.

For sure there is pressure differences between the 4to4 and the 4to1 which will be RPM modal, as 4to4s get little to no reflected pulses from other exhaust events, but a 4 into one gets reflected pulses from ALL the other cylinders.  If tuned correctly, the 4 into 1 will provide a boost in the high power band of the engine, at the expense of fouling the mixture needed by the cylinder at some lower RPM operation.  If the internal configuration of the 4 into 1 system is allowed to change in production, then both the high RPM boost parameter and the low speed fouling RPM can vary among samples.  My take is that the MAC system pipe diameters and length are not specifically tuned for ANY RPM, they just borrowed the overall looks from the racers and made it a cheaply as possible.  (The facade movement/demand has been present for decades.)

Having said all that about the exhaust, it may not be important, and it could simply be that the slide needle or throttle valve system is f'd up.  I'd look there first, examine and measure the fuel metering orifices.  Actually, if the bike were here, I'd just swap out the 087a with a set of 022a first, to isolate a carb issue from some other factor.  I still have not been able to compare a virgin 087a set to what I know are virgin 022a settings and measurements.  But, not everyone has a spare (and known) 022a set on a shelf in the garage.

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JN jet S/B 260mm
JN clip position is the 4th groove from top.

The throttle valve and JN system provide the dominant mixture control between 1/4 and 3/4 throttle position.  Which is most of the "on street" operation.  Poor fuel economy (less than 45mpg with non-ethanol gas) likely means that the throttle valve system is out of whack. (<--- technical term, right?)   ;D
Apart from the three basic JN items just listed for the throttle valve, there is also the air jet, the air jet passageway itself, and the emulsion tube air bleeds size, quantity and placement that can have lesser effects on run operation mixture.

There is another factor to mention, I suppose. (Honda did in their technical series on carbs of that era.) That of slide cutaway.  If you thought the presence or shape of that feature incidental, you thought wrong.  It has an effect on throttle transition between idle and about 1/4 throttle position.  Seems it forms a secondary venturi during those throttle positions.  Changing the ramp angle and/or size of the cutaway changes the vacuum level in that transition range.  Of course, any change to the throat vacuum directly effect the volume of fuel drawn into the carb throat, making it seem like a jetting problem (which it is, indirectly).
Such are the details one must (or ought to) deal with when making changes to the stock configuration.  (But, I can see your eyes rolling.)

Good luck!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Scott S

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Re: CB550: Flat spot + poor mileage. Tuning guidance, please?
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2012, 01:51:22 PM »
 I'm not rolling my eyes. I value your opinion. That chart you posted helps too as it's the only one I've seen that has the needele clip position.
 It sounds like we are experiencing very similar things, as are most other '76 550 owners.

 Next up are fresh plugs and see how todays changes work. I can honestly feel a difference. I think......and please correct me if I'm going the wrong way.....that if I'm still on the edge of too rich, I'll lower the needle one clip. For all I know, these carbs are stock and unaltered, but I have NOT pulled the needles to verify this yet.

 What are your thoughts on that suggestion about RAISING the needle and using a smaller main? Is that for the other carbs where the clip isn't already on the 4th position?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650