Author Topic: One more running rich issue...pulling my hair out.....Fixed....maybe!  (Read 1209 times)

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Offline Heirborn

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I have a '70 cb750, stock everything with the exception of a 4 into 2 exhaust. New air filter, new points and condensor, spark wire ends clipped and caps reinstalled, new fuel lines with fresh filters, timing on, gap good, valves and chain adjusted, float height set, jets pulled and cleaned (carb on bike), carbs sync'ed. Screws backed out now where they are even with the body (about 3 turns). Compression good. One thing I did not check when the bowls were off was the size of the jets.

Bike starts right up without choke and warms up pretty quick and after riding a while with various slow/hard riding starts cutting out. Pull plugs and are all sooty. Hmmmm...did I miss anything?

Where do I go from here? Pull the carbs and check the needles and raise the clip on notch? Test the coils? I purchased a spark tester and when the plugs are clean shows to be firing fine. I know that does not necessarly tell me that the coils are hitting as hard as they should.



« Last Edit: May 29, 2006, 05:04:08 PM by Heirborn »
'70 CB750-Open Pipes and Pod Filters
'72 CL70
'07 Bonneville

Offline DammitDan

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Re: One more running rich issue...pulling my hair out
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2006, 07:32:08 PM »
I would do a plug chop to see the throttle range where your plugs are getting fouled.  I would say just from being able to start without choke points to no throttle-1/8 throttle range.  It's frustrating and time consuming and somewhat expensive (if you buy 3 or 4 sets of new plugs like I do...  course I can use them later on down the road and it's easier to read new plugs than used ones), but it will help you loads.

Also, installing that new exhaust may have changed your carbs' jet specs.  Did you re-jet when you installed the new exhaust?
CB750K4

Offline Heirborn

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Re: One more running rich issue...pulling my hair out
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2006, 07:54:28 PM »
Exhaust were on the bike when I purchased it.  I may get out and try a plug chop tomorrow. I know to warm up the engine and then put a fresh set of plugs in. My fear is that I won't get good readings as the plugs will be fouled out before I can get it to the various rpm ranges. After buying several sets of plugs, I went down today and purchased a pneumatic plug cleaner, so I now have severall sets of clean plugs and able to keep a good supply. Hopefully I can get this figured out so I don't have to monkey with this any longer.
'70 CB750-Open Pipes and Pod Filters
'72 CL70
'07 Bonneville

Offline Heirborn

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Re: One more running rich issue...pulling my hair out
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2006, 08:09:57 AM »
I found the post on float height and the brass floated carbs.  I may try to adjust them to the 28-30 mm and see what that does. Any thoughts on it?
'70 CB750-Open Pipes and Pod Filters
'72 CL70
'07 Bonneville

Offline DammitDan

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Re: One more running rich issue...pulling my hair out
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2006, 10:39:21 AM »
I can't say I know much about actual adjustment to carbs, since the EPA raped my CB650's carbs and made them 95% unadjustable  ;)

Come on guys, chime in here.
CB750K4

Offline TwoTired

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Re: One more running rich issue...pulling my hair out
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2006, 12:01:30 PM »
Dry, black, carbon soot on plugs says that you have ignition but there is too much fuel for the oxygen present in the chambers during combustion.

The fuel is metered by the slow jet (and it's fine tune air bleed screw), throttle valve, and main jet, that each provide dominant mixture, depending on where you position the twist grip and what load is placed on the engine.

Some people drill their jets to a larger size instead of replacing them.  This makes the numbers on them meaningless.  Engine runs rich.

Throttle valve needles and the throttle valve orifice can vibrate against each other and wear, increasing the metered fuel quantity.  Replacing half of the pair only fixes the problem half way.  Engine runs rich.

The engine is supposed to run on the rich side at idle settings. This provides good throttle response under loaded windup, since you have no accelerator pump to richen the mix when the throttle is cracked open.  Prolonged idling can blacken spark plugs.

Small adjustments in mixture can be achieved with changing the float height or fuel level in the carbs.  This usually has some effect on all three metering devices.

A diagnostic tool is to temporarily run the bike without the air filter to eliminate its mild choking effect on the carbs.  If the mixture the throttle setting you are adjusting improves, then lean the mixture for that setting.  Conversely, if adding partial choke improves that throttle setting, that mixture device need to be enriched.

Your bike was modified before you bought it.  And, it sounds like someone sold you their headache.  You will have to become smarter than they were to tune for the modifications made.  Or, return the bike to stock Honda configuration where all factory settings are known and apply.

The stock configuration is the only magic bullet I know of, since they worked 1000's of manhours to get all the adjustments and settings correct for that configuration.  Changing components, means you get to repeat some of those manhours to compensate for those changes.  If you're smart and methodical, you spend little time.  If you just keep swapping pieces, luck determines how long the process takes.

You are going to need a Dyno or a test track, to load the engine at various throttle settings.  And an exhaust gas analyzer, or spark plug analysis with tell you when you've got the mixture right.  This process can be fun in and of itself.  Or, it can be drudgery detracting from other things you'd rather do.  It's what you make of it.

Sorry for the stump speech.
Cheers,



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline DammitDan

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Re: One more running rich issue...pulling my hair out
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2006, 01:09:08 PM »
Wow.  Nice job TT  ;D
CB750K4

Offline Heirborn

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Ok. adjusted the floats to 30mm. Took the bike out and ran it. Came back to the house, checked the plugs....clean! maybe a little too clean. If anything it might be running a little lean now.  The air screws were still out about 2.5-3 turns and idle was high. Adjusting main idle screw did not seem to correct. Screwed them back into the seat and back out 2 turns. took the bike out again this time with slower "around town" type riding. Earlier I was pushing it harder. Brought it back...plugs sooty.

 
'70 CB750-Open Pipes and Pod Filters
'72 CL70
'07 Bonneville