Author Topic: Project CB750 Hemi  (Read 36079 times)

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Offline MRieck

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2006, 04:15:03 AM »


He's got a few more tricks up his sleeves, including ceramic coating the top of the piston and face of the head to further enhance thermal efficiency.
Ceramic coating on the chamber and piston dome certainly work. Skirt coatings, oil shedding coatings etc are pretty good too. Polishing the chamber and piston dome help thermal efficiency if you can't coat. I use Swain Tech for coatings.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2006, 05:04:35 AM »
Mike (MRieck): about that intake shaft: I LOVE what you've done with the place! I'd kiss those guides if I could reach 'em...Is that your chamber? And, how's the mixture tuning at 1/4 to 1/2 throttle, light load? Does it tend to gargle and then lean out? That's one of the things I know I'll face. I think maybe the K4 carbs will help with that situation, because of their mixing collars.
Thanks. Yes, that is my chamber. Actually fueling is good across the range and I'm running CR31's. I went to a one step richer needle and up two sizes on the idle jet. Steady cruise is very good even at 3,000 and that is with a .400 lift cam (engine is 915cc with approximate CR of 10.5:1). I am getting a slight hiccup when rolling on the throttle in 5th from 5,000 to 7,000 at which point it clears out and pulls like hell. I'll go down one size on the main which should clear it up as it wasn't a problem when temps were in the 60's (last weekend it was in the 80's). I can't say enough about the Dyna 2000 ignition as it really holds everything together even at higher CR's...a great piece.
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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2006, 09:20:45 AM »
Quote
Thanks. Yes, that is my chamber. Actually fueling is good across the range and I'm running CR31's. I went to a one step richer needle and up two sizes on the idle jet. Steady cruise is very good even at 3,000 and that is with a .400 lift cam (engine is 915cc with approximate CR of 10.5:1). I am getting a slight hiccup when rolling on the throttle in 5th from 5,000 to 7,000 at which point it clears out and pulls like hell. I'll go down one size on the main which should clear it up as it wasn't a problem when temps were in the 60's (last weekend it was in the 80's). I can't say enough about the Dyna 2000 ignition as it really holds everything together even at higher CR's...a great piece.
Quote

Does your CR31 set have the little "lifting collars" on the needle jet? These can help that 5k-7k area, because they create a vertical draft and edge that atomizes much better when the throttle is pulled. That's how I plan to try and cope with it, up front. These were a significant improvement to the K28 series carbs, but sometimes came with non-changeable jets.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline MRieck

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2006, 10:24:42 AM »
Quote

Does your CR31 set have the little "lifting collars" on the needle jet? These can help that 5k-7k area, because they create a vertical draft and edge that atomizes much better when the throttle is pulled. That's how I plan to try and cope with it, up front. These were a significant improvement to the K28 series carbs, but sometimes came with non-changeable jets.


I know exactly what you are describing. Unfortunately different needle jets are not available for the CR's (not even different diameters). Keihin does offer many different needles. Mikuni on the other hand offers different needle jets and needles though all the noozles appear to be the same if I remember correctly.
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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2006, 07:05:29 PM »
I helped a couple of enduro riders make this 'lifting collar' on their scoots by trimming away the facing edge of the nozzle, then wrapping some .015" thick brass around in the notched-out area, soldered it on, and shaped it afterward. Worked out well. One the second one, I cut a vetrical slot down to the top of the nozzle, as I had seen in the Yosh versions of Keihins for racing. That one started easier and had more low end, by a little bit, than the first one.

But, those were 1-hole engines...  ::)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline MRieck

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2006, 06:52:33 AM »
I helped a couple of enduro riders make this 'lifting collar' on their scoots by trimming away the facing edge of the nozzle, then wrapping some .015" thick brass around in the notched-out area, soldered it on, and shaped it afterward. Worked out well. One the second one, I cut a vetrical slot down to the top of the nozzle, as I had seen in the Yosh versions of Keihins for racing. That one started easier and had more low end, by a little bit, than the first one.

But, those were 1-hole engines...  ::)
Interesting. I just checked an old Sudco catalog and they do(or did) list 2 nozzles. One is flat (which is stock) and the other is screened (or shielded). The screened flows more fuel for alcohol and drag racing.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 04:27:53 AM by MRieck »
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2006, 08:47:33 PM »
Any updates on this project? How'd it turn out?
Doug

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2006, 08:55:49 PM »
6/18/06: I just got the engine back in the frame. Installed new steering head bearings (it took 100,000 miles to wear out those Timkens!) and now have to replace swingarm bushings, sprockets, chain and rear wheel bearings. Hopefully, next weekend it will have a heartbeat again.   ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bill440cars

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2006, 09:30:20 PM »



                              I can only imagine what kind of a heartbeat that it'll have Mark. Anxious for the
                      results of your labor. Catch you later, I gotta get outta here.  Later on,  Bill
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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2006, 09:11:21 PM »
Any updates on this project? How'd it turn out?

The volumetric efficiency is WAY higher than I thought! Gotta work on leaning out the carb's calibration, getting black plugs and rocket-like performance!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Pinhead

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2006, 09:14:54 PM »
Any disadvantages that you've noticed (other than the rich mixture)? If you get that running right I'd be interested in a "step-by-step" if that'd be possible. Kind of put it all together (maybe in the FAQ section). Did you get the added torque you were looking for? How about the torque curve? Does it surge at high RPM's like a "normal" SOHC?

Looks like a really neat project!
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2006, 08:48:27 AM »
Hondaman,

Let's ride !!
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Tim.

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2006, 09:35:57 AM »
I'd take black plugs if they came with rocket like performance!  Or do you mean literally like a rocket, and you're spitting fire out the back end  :o
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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2006, 03:59:22 PM »
Would there be any advantage to installing a second spark plug in each cylinder?  ??? I know it really makes an improvement in two stroke engines.

Offline bill440cars

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2006, 04:35:44 PM »



                 I can't recall right now but the 2 sparkplug per cylinder was used in the either CB450 DOHC
       or the XS650 Yamaha, for racing. This feature was also used in the HEMI engines in A/A fuel
       dragsters and Funny cars as well that I know of. Now,  I have no idea if there's room to add a 2nd
       plug per cylinder on the Honda or not. That question needs to be left to the more knowledgeable.
       later on, Bill 

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PRAYERS ALWAYS FOR: Bre, Jeff & Virginia, Bear, Trevor & Brianna ( Close Friend's Daughter)
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2006, 05:19:28 PM »
Would there be any advantage to installing a second spark plug in each cylinder?  ??? I know it really makes an improvement in two stroke engines.
Where you going to put it. It is old news in early GS and KZ engines. Byron Hines put 3 in an FJ head for Prostock years ago to cut down on ignition lead. I'm not giving you a hard time, your logic is absolutely correct, but it isn't practical in any CB.
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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2006, 07:18:39 PM »
Cool ideas!

Yes, the power is UP! The midrange power I was used to at 4400-5000 is now available from about 3200 up. I haven't wound it past 5500 RPM yet, it's pretty young...  ::)

I solved most of the fouling problem by raising float height to 27.5mm on the inside carbs, 28.0 on the outside ones. I need to find some 95 jets (and 90s) to sort out the final: it runs real strong at 100 size right now, using a new Honda paper air filter (while I soak my old K&N for a week or so).

The best part: the surging these engines do so often at 3500-5000 in lower gears is COMPLETELY GONE. That's the big surprise: it's much smoother in that range than it ever was. I didn't expect that. I think the spark advance curve will need a little work, though, because it snaps at about 1500-2000 something fierce, just as the clutch is letting fully out. I think I need to delay the advance start just a little to smooth that out. But, carbs first...

The discussion about plugs: top fuel dragsters and alcohol cars use 2 because they fuel them so close to hydraulic lock that one ignition miss will cost them an engine. Dirt bikes often come with 2 so one heat range (colder) can be used on the highway to the dirt, and another(hotter) in the dirt, to preserve the engine. That was Yamaha's original intent, anyway.

A better idea than multiple plugs is the approach used by racers: use multi-spark discharge. Several brands are out there, but I would have to research them to see which ones could live on a CB power budget.

BUT-this gives me a great idea: I am an electrical engineer, and designed (probably the first) transistorized ignitions for the CB750 in 1972. I built one for me and sent the plans to my friend (then in New York), who built another for his K0. It was a module that mounted on the rear fender, near the taillight (for lack of space elsewhere), and connected to the stock points. The current through the points was reduced to .1 amp, so they lasted until the rubbing blocks wore out, about 15,000 miles, and the gap was only .010", so dwell, spark voltage and bounce were all greatly improved. (The drawback here was that the slots in the points plate had to be widened to accomodate the smaller gap and still get the timing right.) The wires had to be upsized from the module to the coils to reduce losses, but the standard 7kV output was almost 11kV as a result. MPG went up, smoothness was 'WAY better, and they idled (imagine a 750 actually idling!). This setup was good for 14,000 RPM on the track, using stock points with crosses cut across the faces of the contacts to let air escape better. Later, we drilled holes thru the points, which was easier.

Today, these parts are dirt cheap (it cost $78 in 1972 to buy just the parts). So, maybe I should make some more! The Dyna systems are pretty good, but if you don't use the whole DynaIII with their coils, you only get about 6kV spark from the stock coils. (Not your high-perf arrangement), and the Dyna coils don't last like Honda's own. With a little addition to my original circuit, I could nearly double the Honda coil's kV output today, maybe even make it multi-spark. Hmmm...  ::)

Some a$$^*le stole mine off the back of my bike at a motel one night, in 1974. The only good part was, I just connected the points back to the coils, opened the gap to .014" and timed it with a 12v lamp from the instrument cluster, and kept on touring - a little delayed. Some people's kids...  >:(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bill440cars

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2006, 07:45:46 PM »


      On the subject of 2 sparkplugs per cylinder: Back in the late 50's, the Jawas (125-175 for sure, 250 maybe) has  2 complete ignition coil and spark plugs on the "Scrambler" models. It was said that, if one set broke down, you could switch to the other set and keep on going. Back then we called them "Scramblers" and now days, I hear them refered to as 6 day trials bikes and they weren't built to be slow and for manuverability either) These bikes were more muscular looking than their street counterparts. Seemed like a good place to throw that in, hope you all don't mind.
                                                             Later on, Bill
Member # 1969
PRAYERS ALWAYS FOR: Bre, Jeff & Virginia, Bear, Trevor & Brianna ( Close Friend's Daughter)
"Because HE lives, I can Face Tomorrow"                  
 You CAN Teach An Old Dog New Tricks, Just Takes A Little Bit Longer & A Lot More Patience!! 
             
Main Rides: '02 Durango, '71 Swinger & Dad's '93
                  Dakota LE 4x4 '66 CB77 & '72 SL350K2
Watch What You Step Into, It Could  End Up A Mess!

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2006, 08:08:46 PM »
I'd take black plugs if they came with rocket like performance!  Or do you mean literally like a rocket, and you're spitting fire out the back end  :o

No, more like "drag bike launch", bad surging, hard to clutch, etc. But, kicks butt when you crank it open!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline kayaker43

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2006, 08:43:39 PM »
Hondaman,.. I think the guy who stole your Ignition box copied them. I had one on my roadracer, it was called "Super Spark" and seems very similar. It used the points as a low voltage switch so they lasted as long as the rubbing blocks, and claimed a 100% increase in spark energy. It was described as a CDI and made a squeeling noise. You could use a jumper plug to bypass and return to stock ignition.

I still have it but think its potted inside so you can't reverse engineer it. I do have the lengthy documentataion decribing its operation I can send copies if you want them, just give me a call. It worked great and only cost $70-80, I wondered why it wasn't more popular?

Doug (248) 391-2974
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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2006, 10:34:21 PM »
In the late 70's when Kawasaki was in the snowmobile business they made a 440 with single plug and a similar 440 with dual plugs. The dual plug engine would out perform the single plug version by two to one. It was a much cleaner burning engine, even for a 2 stroke. The dual plug would reach max rpm much quicker and had unbelievable torque off the line.
 I realize that there is a world of difference between 2 & 4 stroke but it seems that igniting the fuel/air mix in two places in the top of the head would make for cleaner burning and a more even "push" on the top of the piston. Just a thought.

Offline Bodain

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2006, 03:49:13 AM »
I knew I would get in trouble. I think you have to wreck a lot of heads to find out what really works. Porting and chamber design is more art than science. What looks good ie.shiny polished intake tracs are not what really works. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and the study of flow in a pipe is more complicated than it looks. I remember asking my internal combustion professor in 1971 how to modify the header of my Yamaha 305 2 stroke to get more power and he laughed. The factorys build a lot of heads changing just one aspect and graph the results. After a couple hundred heads they start to see what works. The odds of hitting a better head design the first time is slim. Just my opinion. Also, just building a head for full throttle is easier than one that flows well at all speeds.

I don't have a degree in anything mechanical, however I am self appointed shade tree mechanic out of necessity. I recently read an an article on head porting that I found very interesting. It basically stated that alot of people spend a lot of time and effort porting and polishing intake and exhaust. People love shiney and will pay extra for shiney stuff. <GRIN> In fact they gain nothing. The reason given is that the flow characteristics are better with a rough surface as opposed to a shiney smooth one. The rough surface creates eddies and under currents that facilitate the atomization of oxygen and fuel.

True or false I don't know. Just interesting reading. In these forums I tend not to take anything as absolute, but there are alot great ideas here. Some good. Some not so good.
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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2006, 04:27:45 AM »
I can speak to porting and polishing in two stroke engines from personal experience. It can make a very noticeable difference to polish both the intake and exhaust ports. As to the actual porting in a two stroke, modifying the port timing a mm in the wrong direction can kill a cylinder or make a big difference in a positive way. But, two stroke principal of operation is completely different from 4 stroke.
On a 4 stroke I would guess that polishing the intake and exhaust wouldn't make a huge difference without doing a few other mods as well such as opening up the exhaust and air intake, re-jetting, etc. I'm speaking from theory on the 4 stroke as I have never polished the intake or exhaust on one.

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2006, 05:59:44 PM »
Hondaman,.. I think the guy who stole your Ignition box copied them. I had one on my roadracer, it was called "Super Spark" and seems very similar. It used the points as a low voltage switch so they lasted as long as the rubbing blocks, and claimed a 100% increase in spark energy. It was described as a CDI and made a squeeling noise. You could use a jumper plug to bypass and return to stock ignition.

I still have it but think its potted inside so you can't reverse engineer it. I do have the lengthy documentataion decribing its operation I can send copies if you want them, just give me a call. It worked great and only cost $70-80, I wondered why it wasn't more popular?

Doug (248) 391-2974
buildstuff@comcast.net

Oooo...that would hurt, except if it squealed, it probably was a CDI. Mine was not. The popularity of CDI waned partly because of its complexity (hard to fix), high current draw (about 4-6 amps per coil, typically) and the fact that it often quit in cold temperatures. There were also a couple of lawsuits (go figure) because the high voltage can be "always present" if the output charge transistor(s) shorted - which can happen. The result, in cars, was under-hood fires. I never heard of a bike going through this, though.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline MRieck

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Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2006, 06:34:13 PM »
I knew I would get in trouble. I think you have to wreck a lot of heads to find out what really works. Porting and chamber design is more art than scIEnce. What looks good ie.shiny polished intake tracs are not what really works. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and the study of flow in a pipe is more complicated than it looks. I remember asking my internal combustion professor in 1971 how to modify the header of my Yamaha 305 2 stroke to get more power and he laughed. The factorys build a lot of heads changing just one aspect and graph the results. After a couple hundred heads they start to see what works. The odds of hitting a better head design the first time is slim. Just my opinion. Also, just building a head for full throttle is easier than one that flows well at all speeds.

I don't have a degree in anything mechanical, however I am self appointed shade tree mechanic out of necessity. I recently read an an article on head porting that I found very interesting. It basically stated that alot of people spend a lot of time and effort porting and polishing intake and exhaust. People love shiny and will pay extra for shiny stuff. <GRIN> In fact they gain nothing. The reason given is that the flow characteristics are better with a rough surface as opposed to a shiny smooth one. The rough surface creates eddies and under currents that facilitate the atomization of oxygen and fuel.

True or false I don't know. Just interesting reading. In these forums I tend not to take anything as absolute, but there are alot great ideas here. Some good. Some not so good.
Jerry Branch did a lot of research on this in regard to motorcycle cylinder heads. To cut to the chase....I've done both on both sides but the play of other factors make it impossible to discern. Personally I feel folks want to see a well finished intake (not polished but smooth) and they work well. SAE has not been able to say one is better than the other and on a flow bench THEY FLOW THE SAME!!!! PERIOD!!!! Jerry Branch does say that actual atomization takes place in the last 10 or 15 degrees of compression. Puddling, short changed intake sides etc....Christ you could about it for years.....
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"