Author Topic: Project CB750 Hemi  (Read 35871 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

eldar

  • Guest
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2006, 09:17:30 AM »
There is some fire there :o

Under most normal circumstances, whaleman would have a point. hondaman has done things like this for years though. He and mike have a pretty good grasp on what head changes will do.

maybe some water on the fire would be in order?

Offline volz1fsu

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 104
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2006, 09:25:15 AM »
There is some fire there :o

Under most normal circumstances, whaleman would have a point. hondaman has done things like this for years though. He and mike have a pretty good grasp on what head changes will do.

maybe some water on the fire would be in order?
That is an understatement!!  Sounds like a crazy man to me, his picture seems to say all.

Offline tsflstb

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 918
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2006, 09:31:06 AM »
Lots of anger in that one

I think these guys know what they're doing.  If not...hell, they'll figure it out.  I'm an engineer, my old man was a truck driver.  Guess who I ask for advice when I'm fixing something around the house?  Experience is the greatest teacher.

Regardless, I think it's cool because you can hitch up your pants and say "Yep, it's got a HEMI"

Offline bill440cars

  • Feeling More & More,
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,358
  • Tryin' To Slow Down "Time"!
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2006, 09:39:41 AM »



                  New Techniques and Products are developed all the time. Why, because someone had an
         idea and took a chance! Difference being, HondaMan has tons of experience in building motors
         and in racing bikes. And, as I recall, he said, "Let's see what happens."   Enough said.

                                                       Later on, Bill
Member # 1969
PRAYERS ALWAYS FOR: Bre, Jeff & Virginia, Bear, Trevor & Brianna ( Close Friend's Daughter)
"Because HE lives, I can Face Tomorrow"                  
 You CAN Teach An Old Dog New Tricks, Just Takes A Little Bit Longer & A Lot More Patience!! 
             
Main Rides: '02 Durango, '71 Swinger & Dad's '93
                  Dakota LE 4x4 '66 CB77 & '72 SL350K2
Watch What You Step Into, It Could  End Up A Mess!

Offline volthause

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 165
    • gallery
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2006, 09:59:30 AM »
I agree that most things are engineered extensively and the Honda engineers designed that head to work well under the particular set of circumstances that they designed that motorcycle for.

The caveat is that designing an engine and a motor vehicle of any kind is fraught with COMPROMISE. Make it run smoothly throughout the rev range, make it fuel efficient, make it run as cool as possible in every environment, make it emmisions friendly, make it run quietly, etc.

After you change your intake to pods, and your exhaust to 4 into 1 headers you've altered the original Honda design that the proportedly "holier than god" engineers so thoughtfully put together, but people do that every day and never think twice about it.

Head porting and combustion chamber re-shapping is not for dummies, but it allows the end user to remove the restricitons and compromises that the orginal engineers had to incorporate, if those restrictions and compromises are non-issues for the end user.
scott - 1974 CB550
Project Thread - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=122740.0

WHALEMAN

  • Guest
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2006, 10:49:40 AM »
WOW Doc are we maybe getting a little worked up? I think Hondaman knows I did not question his extensive knowledge of CB750 head design. I stand by my statement that attacking a head with a rotozip and a piece of sandpaper on your finger will not very often work to increase power. If Hondaman feels that there was any disrespect from me I apologize. As for you Doc, you can kiss my ass.

Offline crazypj

  • I'm brill, me
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,467
  • first 100,000 miles. 1977 CB550F
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2006, 11:03:13 AM »
Hi Hondaman,
Interesting project
do you know how much lower compression is with the mods and do you have higher dome pistons fitted??
for all the detractors and fans, Hemi is very good at making torque at relativly low rpm, the longer flame travel keeps 'pushing' on piston over a (very slightly) longer period. (hell we're only talking thousandths of a second) I'm not particularly a fan of the design but this motor was built for round town use, its no fun at all having a 'buzz bomb' in traffic
PJ
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,564
  • Big ideas....
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2006, 12:17:17 PM »
A much modified chamber with 5mm stem 34mm intakes and .060 milled off. Modified port and guide with intake valve throats opened to 90% of valve diameter. It all works extremely well. ;)
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Pinhead

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,818
  • 1979 CB652-ST
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2006, 12:26:00 PM »
Making the combustion chamber draw more air (making it more hemispherical) is all fine and dandy to help increase volumetric efficiency. However, it may not increase thermal or chemical efficiency. Combustion chamber turbulence would help with that. Take those nice, smooth combustion chambers and add some dimples to them. Take a look at this pic. It may not be a hemi, but it's a very efficient and powerfull engine. It allows you to run high compression without preignition. It also makes the fuel charge burn more quickly, therefore adding thermal efficiency. That's the first attached picture.

2nd pic: And dimples as well as what was dubbed "surface turbulence" on a production piston:

That's the first thing I'm going to do when I tear my heads down on my '79 650. I don't have the tools to plane the head for higher compression, however, so until I find a shop that will do it for a decent price, it'll have to wait.

Third pic: MPGMike's PowreLynz on an intake runner.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 02:55:17 PM by Pinhead »
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
:D

Offline Pinhead

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,818
  • 1979 CB652-ST
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2006, 12:31:56 PM »
Originally posted by MPGMike at www.mpgresearch.com
Quote
I had a tool made up at my brother's machine shop that can put "screw threads" into the intake ports of the cylinder head (or intake manifold). The texture does three things:
1) acts like a wick to hold liquid fuel and let it evaporate into the intake charge
2) creates additional turbulence, bashing large liquid fuel droplets into dozens of smaller ones
3) increases the surface area of the heated port walls, allowing more thermal energy to be imparted to the fuel. In fluid dynamics, the light vaporized fuel and air will flow down the center of the conduit (intake port) and the heavier liquids will hug the boundary layer (port walls). The air charge is not significantly heated by the walls of the port and stays cool and dense. The fuel IS heated and turbulated and better vaporized this way though.

Mike


Incorporate these two developments (chamber dimples and "powre lynz," the intake port mod) into your motorcycle's hemi design and you'll get one heck of an increase in both fuel economy and power. They especially help you if you're running higher compression. These guys are running in the neighborhood of 12:1 compression on 87 octane fuel with no ping. Their engines run cooler, too, due to the increased thermal efficiency. They can also run the mixture leaner without any problems with power or heat.

Doug
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 02:56:27 PM by Pinhead »
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
:D

Offline dusterdude

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,482
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2006, 12:38:56 PM »
mike,your head shure is purty.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

eldar

  • Guest
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2006, 01:00:22 PM »
What we need to do is get a faq together on head mods and their resulting effect and what is all required to do them.
This way a person could decide what is right for them.
There is all this stuff going around about head mods and they will just disappear if they are not saved.

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,564
  • Big ideas....
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2006, 01:03:46 PM »
Making the combustion chamber draw more air (making it more hemispherical) is all fine and dandy to help increase volumetric efficiency. However, it may not increase thermal or chemical efficiency. Combustion chamber turbulence would help with that. Take those nice, smooth combustion chambers and add some dimples to them. Take a look at this pic. It may not be a hemi, but it's a very efficient and powerfull engine. It allows you to run high compression without preignition. It also makes the fuel charge burn more quickly, therefore adding thermal efficiency.



And dimples as well as what was dubbed "surface turbulence" on a production piston:



That's the first thing I'm going to do when I tear my heads down on my '79 650. I don't have the tools to plane the head for higher compression, however, so until I find a shop that will do it for a decent price, it'll have to wait.
Can you get these pics posted? I'd like to see them...all I see are red X's.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Pinhead

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,818
  • 1979 CB652-ST
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2006, 01:05:47 PM »
Can you get these pics posted? I'd like to see them...all I see are red X's.

Not sure why the pics aren't showing up, I can see them on my end... Here's direct links


http://www.mpgresearch.com/download.php?id=32
http://www.mpgresearch.com/download.php?id=33

And, just in case, here's the one for the "powre lynz" on the intake port.

http://www.mpgresearch.com/download.php?id=46
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
:D

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,564
  • Big ideas....
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2006, 02:22:32 PM »
Links don't work....must have to a member. ???
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline cben750f0

  • nothin draws attention like a classic bike!!
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,612
  • '75 CB750F0 Gladstone NQLD OZ
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2006, 02:25:40 PM »
DOC u love stirrin tha pot... ;D....peace
you are never to old, to act like a kid... be safe
funny thing,chasing someone down hill on a bike 30 years older than theirs..
he said \\\\\\\'it was like watching a 250kg unguided weapon getting stuck up you bum\\\\\\\ http://www.bikepics.com/members/trixtrem/

Offline Pinhead

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,818
  • 1979 CB652-ST
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2006, 02:52:41 PM »
Links don't work....must have to a member. ???

Hmm... I'll have to download them and re-post.

Edit: That should do it.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 02:58:05 PM by Pinhead »
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
:D

Offline Pinhead

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,818
  • 1979 CB652-ST
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2006, 03:00:49 PM »
Another improvement that I forgot to mention has to do with the intake valve itself. Look at this link:

http://fueleconomytips.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=147&Itemid=2

I don't think you have to be a member to view it, but if so let me know and I'll get some pictures up here.

Edit: Just in case, here's part of it.

Quote
Those “knowledgeable in the art” as patents like to profess, know that liquid fuel doesn’t burn.  Only the fuel that gets fully vaporized and homogenized with the incoming air will burn.  We will be performing several modifications to Larry’s cylinder head to more fully vaporize the fuel at various stages of the engine’s operation.  The intake valves will sport one of these modifications.

As the intake valve opens to admit the air/fuel charge, it is quite hot from the previous combustion cycle.  The incoming air/fuel charge rushes past the open intake valve, even deflects off of it as it enters the cylinder.  Since it is hot, we can maximize this part of the engine process by adding a texture to the port side of the valve to:

1-     create additional helpful turbulence for better fuel vaporization

2-     increase the surface area of the valve to intimately contact more fuel molecules

3-     act as a wick to hold liquid fuel and allow it to vaporize into the incoming air charge.

I came up with this idea about a year ago, forgot about it, and was re-introduced to the concept by iburnh2o from our forum about a month ago.  After I modified a couple of heads’ worth of valves, I found a BMW site that modifies their intake valves in a very similar fashion.  I suppose this adds credibility to the concept when somebody is modifying very expensive engines with the same trick.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 03:05:06 PM by Pinhead »
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
:D

low-side

  • Guest
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2006, 04:44:06 PM »
I'm running an F2 head, and my chambers look like Rieck's (with smaller valves).  Makes a big difference, runs a lot stronger through the whole rev range.  I'm not sure what to think about dimpling and rough surfaces on engines that rev this high; I'd always read that slower turning engines benefited from texturing for greater atomization, while at higher revs rough surfaces interrupted flow enough to hinder performance.  Most of us don't see the other side of 7k so it's kind of moot, but if you intend to go beyond that I'd check to see if someone has done it before with your configuration.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

  • This MuthaF'er is getting to be a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,912
  • Bought her new 4/75
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2006, 06:05:54 PM »
Mike,

If you keep up the posting of those pretty head pix I'm going to........................................................ make you do one for me. Do you give a discount for 2?

Jerry
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,564
  • Big ideas....
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2006, 06:22:46 PM »
Another improvement that I forgot to mention has to do with the intake valve itself. Look at this link:

http://fueleconomytips.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=147&Itemid=2

I don't think you have to be a member to view it, but if so let me know and I'll get some pictures up here.

Edit: Just in case, here's part of it.

Quote
Those “knowledgeable in the art” as patents like to profess, know that liquid fuel doesn’t burn.  Only the fuel that gets fully vaporized and homogenized with the incoming air will burn.  We will be performing several modifications to Larry’s cylinder head to more fully vaporize the fuel at various stages of the engine’s operation.  The intake valves will sport one of these modifications.

As the intake valve opens to admit the air/fuel charge, it is quite hot from the previous combustion cycle.  The incoming air/fuel charge rushes past the open intake valve, even deflects off of it as it enters the cylinder.  Since it is hot, we can maximize this part of the engine process by adding a texture to the port side of the valve to:

1-     create additional helpful turbulence for better fuel vaporization

2-     increase the surface area of the valve to intimately contact more fuel molecules

3-     act as a wick to hold liquid fuel and allow it to vaporize into the incoming air charge.

I came up with this idea about a year ago, forgot about it, and was re-introduced to the concept by iburnh2o from our forum about a month ago.  After I modified a couple of heads’ worth of valves, I found a BMW site that modifies their intake valves in a very similar fashion.  I suppose this adds credibility to the concept when somebody is modifying very expensive engines with the same trick.
  Doug...I don't want burst your bubble...but all that stuff doesn't really matter for bikes.......period.....I'm sorry.
   Mike
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Sam Green Racing

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,068
  • I REALLY? hate black rims.
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2006, 06:45:39 PM »
Another spanner in the works. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Pinhead

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,818
  • 1979 CB652-ST
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2006, 06:53:17 PM »
If you're talking to me, I'm not Mike.... I was just quoting MPGMike from www.mpgresearch.com. However, he does do head work, and in fact just recently finished a Saturn project, NA 2.2 I believe with >250hp and >50mpg. I was going to send my head to him, but the shipping would've killed me.

He's got a few more tricks up his sleeves, including ceramic coating the top of the piston and face of the head to further enhance thermal efficiency. He does the valves, PowreLynz, dimples, singh grooves (if your engine has squish/quench), head shaving for higher compression, cam timing, the list goes on and on. A few of his projects are documented on fueleconomytips.com.
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
:D

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,853
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2006, 07:34:42 PM »
Mike (MRieck): about that intake shaft: I LOVE what you've done with the place! I'd kiss those guides if I could reach 'em...Is that your chamber? And, how's the mixture tuning at 1/4 to 1/2 throttle, light load? Does it tend to gargle and then lean out? That's one of the things I know I'll face. I think maybe the K4 carbs will help with that situation, because of their mixing collars.

Jerry: if this works like I hope it will, we can do up one of those "F" heads you're scouting. It would be fun to see what the domed pistons and later cam would do with it.

About dimples: someone here said it best: it works well for lower RPM engines, and also for those that run very hot. Also, unless you've bored your 750 oversquare, there is one more dynamic to consider: cylinder swirl. The deeper-than-wider engine usually has more turbulence by default, especially when the pattern is guided by intake tract angles, like the 750. Going oversquare, as they say, "changes everything"...My favorite example of this is the 1000cc kits of the early 1970s for the CB: there were 80HP (big deal), 90 HP (that's better) and 100-125HP (ahh...) versions. The difference was in the heads, because all used the same pistons from Rocky Cycle, under private labels.

The ridged valves are, in one aspect, a production version of highly polished valves. This works because of laminar flow: the surface of the grooved valve sets up a thin bed of low-friction air, which smoothes the path for the air behind it to pass over while adding some shear mixing along the way. The valve is usally made thinner, but more expensive material is used for strength, then ridged and the seat pressures are lowered to prevent head loss. I've seen this on engines with solenoid-controlled valves and with torsion bar valve springs - also on Desmo Ducatis in the 1960s. I even saw it on a Harley 750 flattracker when he was torn down for suspected cheating. The ridges weren't illegal, but sure generated a lot of discussion, like here...these ridges also appear in high-viscosity transport piping, for similar reasons: low surface friction and drag, and reduced pipe wear in slurry situations. 

The Hemi design, taken to its limit, allows for larger port areas, like big valves or lots of them. It allows (not in this case) the spark plug to be centered for the most even burn propagation. It also evenly distributes the forces of the expanding gases more evenly, which is where the extra torque appears. The little ridges in the 750 head, for example, mainly direct intake and exhaust flow, and were born of the CVCC (aka HCP) research toward more MPG and lower emissions. In that regard, they work well. But, they cause small disturbances, like ripples crossing a pond on the 2nd or 3rd trip across, that create "null points", or areas of lower force, during the burn. The most noticeable effect is reduced low-end torque and uneven throttle response.

So, I am going to mix "cylinder swirl" of the undersquare engine with the Hemi, provided I can get enough compression afterward, using the flat-topped pistons.  ::)
I fully expect to end up with an engine with no detectable "surge" at the higher RPMs, which is a characteristic of the "big four". I'd like to see the power come on sooner, stay longer, and more of it across the spread. More torque at lower RPM will be hard on the rods, so for now I'll stay with stock-ish bore sizes.

A bit of my "observed" history (not to be confused with official press releases):
The 750 engine was in development at the same time as the 1300cc CVCC 2-chamber engine, and some of its swirly design came, I believe, from that relationship. The CVCC was the ultimate forced-swirl design: a tiny little "precombustion" chamber with a tiny intake valve sat on top of the regular chamber. A small passage connected the two, and the 2-bbl carb had one side set to 12:1 A/F ratio, the other side at 17:1 A/F ratio. Two distributors fired 8 plugs on the 12-valve 4-cylinder like this: the pre-combustion chamber fired first (45 degrees early ! ), driving a rich whirlwind down into the main chamber (at an angle) to swirl that upcoming charge really fast. Then, the second spark (more normal advance rates) would fire the richer mixture at the outer edges of this little storm, which would then burn the leaner part for a longer push time on the piston. It was a peaky engine, so much so that many thought it had a radical cam, but that timing was close to our 750s. The result was an engine that would turn almost 9000 RPM in a car, getting 50 MPG at 80 MPH speeds, and would fit 2 Japanese or 2/3 of an American driver. It also made less than half of the emissions of a standard engine, but with no smog controls of any kind! We used to call them the "roller skate" cars, they were so small, but quick.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Pinhead

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,818
  • 1979 CB652-ST
Re: Project CB750 Hemi
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2006, 08:10:08 PM »
I'm not trying to be a spammer. I'm just posting ideas that I've recently seen and trying to figure out how to apply the knowledge I've gained (which is very little so far). These discussions further my understanding of motorcycle engines. I always just figured they were a "normal" engine that had been balanced better for higher RPM.

With regards to the valve ridges and intake, are you saying it'll further enhance airflow? If so, this would be perfect for these high-RPM engines.

When discussing the dimples, wouldn't an air-cooled engine be one of those"very hot" engines? Also, if they wouldn't help much in the high-RPM band, would they still help with torque? And if so, that'd be perfect to help these engines to help low-end torque, even if they don't help much at the top end. Like many riders on this forum, I very seldom break 6k rpm and if I do, it's down the highway, not WOT.

Is the 79 CB650 the same (when it comes to the above posts) as the 750?
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
:D