Author Topic: Electrical woes (Read 3894 times)

Duanob · « **on:** February 14, 2012, 04:35:34 PM »

If it aint one thing its another!

76 CB550K

Bike has been sitting in a dry garage for the past 4 months. Battery was on a charger and disconnected from the bike. I put it in to start her up and nothing! I hit the starter button which was stiff and all I got was the solenoid clicking. The headlight works but not at 100% brightness. The turn signals don't work. The horn makes a funny noise like it's getting a spark but not good voltage. The brake light works but not the tail light. Everythig worked last fall. I checked the fuses with a multimeter and getting a ohm reading across.

I had the battery off the bike and charged and it shows 100% and 12.9dcv at the battery and on the batterybug which is connected to the solenoid (+) and the frame ground (-). I don't get it. Is this a get into the headlight bucket and start cleaning all the bullet connectors and every connection on the bike? I've never found any corroded connectors yet and up until now the electrical has been fairly dependable. Any thoughts?

cookindaddy · « **Reply #1 on:** February 14, 2012, 04:46:05 PM »

From what you've said, I'd be suspicious of the battery first. Can you measure the battery voltage at the battery while you crank? Any idea of the battery age? There have been some excellent threads on here on troubleshooting electrical issues.

Try the FAQs. This one might help you:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345

Dave K · « **Reply #2 on:** February 14, 2012, 04:48:23 PM »

Along with the battery condition, make sure you have a very good connection on the battery and one the ground.

Duanob · « **Reply #3 on:** February 15, 2012, 08:00:57 AM »

That was my forst thought but I checked the battery. When cranking it drops from 12.9 dcv to ~9 dcv. So I think that's normal. The battery is a year old. It registers fine. I'll check the FAQs but damn I hate electrical issues.

bryanj · « **Reply #4 on:** February 15, 2012, 08:04:50 AM »

9 is low

CycleRanger · « **Reply #5 on:** February 15, 2012, 08:12:54 AM »

Quote from: Duanob on February 15, 2012, 08:00:57 AM

That was my first thought but I checked the battery. When cranking it drops from 12.9 dcv to ~9 dcv. So I think that's normal. The battery is a year old. It registers fine. I'll check the FAQs but damn I hate electrical issues.

Betcha' it's the battery...

flybox1 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 15, 2012, 08:41:06 AM »

Quote from: Duanob on February 14, 2012, 04:35:34 PM

Bike has been sitting ....

there's your problem Duanob

I know, i know. tough to ride up here when its ishtty all the time.
how about taking a look at the connections at and around your battery for corrosion @ ground, the crimped connections on the ends connecting to your batt, etc like Dave K stated.
turn on your lights and wiggle stuff...see if your tail light shows some life. you might just find it quick.
do you have wiring connectors under your tank? these had a tendency to work themselves loose over time on my 350F, and needed pinching together once in a while.

bollingball · « **Reply #7 on:** February 15, 2012, 08:56:47 AM »

Can you try another battery? car or riding mower.
What kind of charger is it? Also what kind of battery? Could it be you over charged the battery? Does it take water? If it is the water type get a small hydrometer and check each cell WallMart has the small ones that work well on these small bike batteries.
Ohm meter on fuses will not tell the whole story. Clean them real good.
About the tail light. could be the bulb or bullet under the seat on top of rear fender or ign.Sw.
With all the things going wrong my best guess is the battery or weak connection at the battery or main ground. Tail light is something else.

Ken

Duanob · « **Reply #8 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:03:56 PM »

OK lets say it is the battery. It's fairly new it a yuasa OEM battery for the bike. Who makes one that will last longer than a year? I don't want to be buying a new every year.

BTW the charger is a 1amp motorcycle type. From everything I've read 9 volts when using the starter is about right. If not what shoudl the minimum volts be? I do have car batteries I can use to do a check. I guess one check is all it takes. It is funny that just 4 months ago everything worked perfect. Even the charge rate was fine @ `14+ volts. I guess I should be lucky its all happening now instead of the middle of summer. The weather is #$%*ty and all I want to do is get this thing ready for spring.

Hey Fly how's life? Did you sell your house and move south yet?

fmctm1sw · « **Reply #9 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:15:00 PM »

From an automobile perspective at least 9VDC is too low. I had a battery die well under a year as well. Sucks... $50 a pop. The changing weather seems to have something to do with it. When I worked at Autozone, we sold a lot of batteries when the weather changed.

CycleRanger · « **Reply #10 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:28:18 PM »

Quote from: Duanob on February 14, 2012, 04:35:34 PM

Battery was on a charger and disconnected from the bike.

You mention that the battery was on the charger, set to 1 amp I believe. Is this just a regular charger or is it a tender with a "float" mode?
It can make a difference.

bollingball · « **Reply #11 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:52:06 PM »

+1 CycleRanger that is why I ask him what type of charger he had.
Duanob If it is not a float type charger I think you may have over charged it. You still did not say what (type) of batt or charger it is. Yuasa is a good brand name one of the best. Don't blame it on the battery just yet. Have you checked the electrolyte level yet?
If properly maintained it should last 5 to 6 years mine do. The one I have now is a scorpion agm.
Read this to learn more about chargers and batteries good stuff.
Also I think it is TT that has some good post in the FAQ

http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/charging-articles/

Ken

flybox1 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:13:58 PM »

yep, sold the fort, and moving the fam to a lease in BotHELL for a year to make up some $ from the (lubeless grab your ankles) price we sold it, then we'll head to AZ. i'll save 6 hours a week commute time. thats enough time to wrench!

still ISO another CB. if i wasn't right in the middle of trying to move a family of 6 by myself by the 26th, i might drive down to take a look at this dusty mess....
http://kpr.craigslist.org/mcy/2852088944.html
hijack over ..hope you get your 550 back on the road

TwoTired · « **Reply #13 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:33:34 PM »

A 1 amp rate is fine for putting a charge in a depleted 550 battery. But, is about 10 times more current that a full battery should get.
If you left it on a 1 amp charger for 4 months (instead of one day), the battery is probably bad now. A battery tender will put about .1 or .12 amps into a battery to keep it maintained at safe voltage ~ 13V.

The math: A 12AH battery has a safe recharge rate of 1/10 C or in this case 1.2 amps. However, the maintenance charge rate is 1/100 C.

Dropping to 9V with the solenoid clicking means the voltage is actually dropping far more than 9V as you are reading. The clicking solenoid translates to a pulsing drain and yur meter is displaying an average of solenoid and starter motor engaged, and the solenoid relaxing and disengaging the starter motor. If it were 9 V while the starter was spinning the motor, you'd be ok, sorta. (It really shouldn't drop more than about 10V, imo)

Essentially your battery is failing the load test.

Anything man made can be destroyed.

Duanob · « **Reply #14 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:38:21 PM »

Thanks TT I guess that's good news. Buying a new battery is better than chasing electrical problems anyday. I had the battery on a 1 amp charge for a about 2 weeks at the most.

So just for testing purposes, can I jump a car battery to the bike? It won't fry anything just trying to start it? That seems to me the fastest and easiest way to tell if my battery is fried. If the starter turns then I know it's time to buy a new battery. If I have the same symptoms then I have other problems.

Fly nice bike for $1200. titled and everything. I hope you get some time to wrench.

Duanob · « **Reply #15 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:43:36 PM »

Quote from: bollingball on February 15, 2012, 12:52:06 PM

http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/charging-articles/

Ken

Thanks BB The charger is a regular motorcycle/RV 1amp charger. Not a float charger. The battery is same make/type/ and model that came from the factory Lead acid Yauasa not sure of the model at the moment but I looked it up in the owners manual to buy it. I'll check the electrolights this weekend when I get the chance.

There aren't a lot of options available for the 550 because the fit it so tight. The PO stuffed one in from the local Carquest and cut the battery cage to make it fit. Grrr!

TwoTired · « **Reply #16 on:** February 15, 2012, 05:08:14 PM »

Quote from: Duanob on February 15, 2012, 03:38:21 PM

So just for testing purposes, can I jump a car battery to the bike? It won't fry anything just trying to start it?

Yes. Just make TRIPLE sure the polarity connections are correct. Even an instant of wrong polarity will damage something in the charge circuit.

zeek · « **Reply #17 on:** February 15, 2012, 05:23:25 PM »

rip that yuasa piece o crap outta there and go to batteries plus and get one of their batteries. also, don't get an interstate battery they are junk also.
even better...get one of those ballistic batteries. look em up. lithium ion,super tiny battery with insane cranking amps. i have one in my 350f, 4cell evo2 at 135 cca it will crank it just fine but im running kick only or i would've gotten the next size up.

zeek

TwoTired · « **Reply #18 on:** February 15, 2012, 05:30:30 PM »

I've had very good service with ALL my Yuasa Batteries. I've had an interstate in my Truck for the last 10 years. And the Interstate in my Camaro is in it's seventh year.

I do recommend the YB12 over the standard size for the 550, though. It fits in the same holder and has more plate area.

bollingball · « **Reply #19 on:** February 15, 2012, 07:11:20 PM »

+1 on the Yuasa very good battery They did not have my size in stock so I went with a scorpion also a very good battery. If I were you I would look into a different type charger. The one you have is OK but you have to watch the clock. You could put it on a timer.I really like the AGM also no more checking water however you still don't want to over charge it.
After a PM with TT I bought this
https://www.denniskirk.com/yuasa/6-12-v-1-5-a-battery-charger.p282952.prd/282952.sku

Ken

Duanob · « **Reply #20 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:20:21 PM »

Quote from: TwoTired on February 15, 2012, 05:30:30 PM

I've had very good service with ALL my Yuasa Batteries. I've had an interstate in my Truck for the last 10 years. And the Interstate in my Camaro is in it's seventh year.

I do recommend the YB12 over the standard size for the 550, though. It fits in the same holder and has more plate area.

thanks for the tip on the YB12. I'll try and jump it this weekend and see what I get. It's hard to find an OEM size battery around here so I bought the last online. Looks like I may have to do that again.

TwoTired · « **Reply #21 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:34:59 PM »

The Yuasa web site states that YB12A-A is the correct nomenclature for the CB550.

If you bought a battery online, did it come with the acid that you had to put in it?

Did you "condition" it before putting it into service?

CycleRanger · « **Reply #22 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:39:15 PM »

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Yuasa_YB12A-A_cross-reference_list

Champion 12AA
Delco MC1216
Energizer 2074490
GNB 12AA
GS JSB-GM12AZ-4A-1
GS ZYI-CB12A-A
Interstate YB12A-A
Koyo YB12A-A
Motocross M3212Y
Napa 740-1854
Power-Sonic CB12A-A
Sears 44358
Wal-Mart ES12AA
Yacht CB12A-A
Yuasa YB12A-A

Duanob · « **Reply #23 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:46:10 PM »

Quote from: TwoTired on February 16, 2012, 01:34:59 PM

The Yuasa web site states that YB12A-A is the correct nomenclature for the CB550.

If you bought a battery online, did it come with the acid that you had to put in it?

Did you "condition" it before putting it into service?

Naw I had to buy the acid locally. I just followed the directions. My Yuasa was a 12n12A-4 But the Yuasa yumicron YB12A might be the ticket. At Batterymart.com they also sell the acid pack for $2.95

Thanks for the info Cycleranger our local stores don't carry much for vintage bikes. Maybe the Napa could be found here.

CycleRanger · « **Reply #24 on:** February 17, 2012, 06:52:47 AM »

Quote from: Duanob on February 16, 2012, 09:46:10 PM

Quote from: TwoTired on February 16, 2012, 01:34:59 PM
The Yuasa web site states that YB12A-A is the correct nomenclature for the CB550.

If you bought a battery online, did it come with the acid that you had to put in it?

Did you "condition" it before putting it into service?

Naw I had to buy the acid locally. I just followed the directions. My Yuasa was a 12n12A-4 But the Yuasa yumicron YB12A might be the ticket. At Batterymart.com they also sell the acid pack for $2.95

Thanks for the info Cycleranger our local stores don't carry much for vintage bikes. Maybe the Napa could be found here.

Batteries Plus may have one in stock. Certainly NAPA could get one in a couple of days at most. Look for an AGM battery.

Duanob · « **Reply #25 on:** February 18, 2012, 01:45:22 PM »

Thanks guys! You all saved my bacon again. I lov e this site. As soon as I hooked up a car battery it turned right over. Everything worked as it should. I pulled the battery out of the bike and it was bone dry. Didn't show any signs of leaking. Strange. I guess I'll be shopping for another battery cause I don't trust this one not to leak out again. It's a great feeling solve a simple problem.

TwoTired · « **Reply #26 on:** February 18, 2012, 03:20:56 PM »

When you overcharge a battery, it bubbles. This is electrolysis, where the electricity breaks the bond between molecules. It this case, the sulfuric acid (H₂SO₄) separates/liberates Hydrogen and oxygen from the solution, which becomes a gas and exits the vent on the battery.
Water is H₂O. So, fill your battery with distilled water (H₂O), and your battery just might come back to service with a little tending charge and time to get restore the chemical balance.

I doubt your battery leaked. But, the overcharging sent the water into the atmosphere.

Dave K · « **Reply #27 on:** February 18, 2012, 04:12:03 PM »

I agree with TwoTired. If you are lucky, the battery will take a charge after getting refilled. I have never been that lucky and the plates always sulfates and warped/shorted. I went through batteries like a house a fire when I thought I could leave them on trickle charge. It just doesn't work for me. That is why this fall I bought 6 of the float type chargers from Harbor Freight. So far, so good. I did not buy a float type charger for the one 6v. battery I have. I have it on a .5am charger. The battery was new in Nov. It uses water because I left it plugged in. Not any more. I will plug it for a few days a month and then get a float type charger next fall or earlier.

Duanob · « **Reply #28 on:** February 18, 2012, 06:30:03 PM »

When it comes to car and boat batteries you just buy a battery and 3 to 5 years later when it starts to fail you buy another one. I guess that was the difference between a manitenance free and these OEM type motorcycle batteries. I've had boat batteries fail but the battery box usually has battery acid in the bottom of it. You just go buy another one.

Why not use sulfuric battery acid again instead of distilled water? The Yuasa has a stop-sulfating feature to them So hopefully I'll get lucky in that regards.

TwoTired · « **Reply #29 on:** February 18, 2012, 06:50:06 PM »

Quote

Why not use sulfuric battery acid again instead of distilled water?

Because the sulfur is still in the battery. It didn't leave. Just the Hydrogen and Oxygen, which you put back in as distilled water.

A sulfuric acid molecule consist of 2 Hydrogen atoms, 1 sulfur atom and 4 Oxygen atoms. It get gain a bit more oxygen from the vent during recharging.

The strength of the acid also depends on the acid concentration without over activity, which would dissolve the plates much more rapidly.

The battery doesn't actually store electricity. It stores chemicals that release or absorb electrical current during a chemical conversion process depending on the voltage potential present at the terminals, and how much of the plates and electrolyte are in a "converted" state.

For more detail, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93acid_battery

Cheers,

Duanob · « **Reply #30 on:** February 19, 2012, 09:12:17 AM »

Thanks TT. I never did finish chemistry in college, I just changed my major to an arts degree!

bollingball · « **Reply #31 on:** February 19, 2012, 10:32:15 AM »

Duanob If you want your bike battery to work more like your car battery.Longer life very little maintenance. Than spend a little more money and get a (AGM) and the proper charger you will not believe the difference. No more fluid to worry about just keep connections clean and charging circuit on the bike working as it should no over charging. There is no reason you should not get 4 to 6 years out of the agm battery.

Ken

bollingball · « **Reply #32 on:** February 19, 2012, 04:27:55 PM »

TT On reply 21 can you go through what you do to condition This size of bike battery?
Thanks in advance
Ken

Duanob · « **Reply #33 on:** February 19, 2012, 05:27:03 PM »

Quote from: bollingball on February 19, 2012, 10:32:15 AM

Duanob If you want your bike battery to work more like your car battery.Longer life very little maintenance. Than spend a little more money and get a (AGM) and the proper charger you will not believe the difference. No more fluid to worry about just keep connections clean and charging circuit on the bike working as it should no over charging. There is no reason you should not get 4 to 6 years out of the agm battery.

Ken

BB If I can't bring this battery back to life or it just gives me more trouble then that's what I plan on doing.

TwoTired · « **Reply #34 on:** February 19, 2012, 06:06:45 PM »

Quote from: bollingball on February 19, 2012, 04:27:55 PM

TT On reply 21 can you go through what you do to condition This size of bike battery?
Thanks in advance
Ken

In order to make the chemicals saturate into full conversion, you have to charge the battery just until it begins gassing freely. This size battery (CB550) would have a 1.2A (1/10C) charger placed on it and then watched until gassing is observed.
If you have a float charger that switches to float at 14.5V it would condition the battery automatically. The Yuasa Smart Shot (Float charger/maintainer) does this. But, I have float chargers that switch to float at 13.8-ish, which would be more correct in hot weather situations (see chart below). I'm not certain what the Battery Tender Jr float charger switches at, as I don't have one of those, and not all chargers are up front with this spec., probably to avoid some "average" customer confusion. Deltran does have a nice explanation of the charging steps.
http://batterytender.com/resources/battery-basics.htm
Somewhat less technical, but good info here:
http://www.yuasabatteries.com/motor_battery.php

Anyway, what you want is a charger that sneaks up on the 14.5V peak with gradually reducing current as in a multi-step charger (3 minimum). The 3 steps are: bulk charge, absorption, and maintenance. Usually, the more steps, the better for maintaining, and even better would have 5 steps and temperature compensation. (The temperature of the electrolyte determines its full absorption voltage level.) But, a 5 step charger usually costs more.

Interestingly, I just bought a new AGM battery for my airplane from Condorde. Below is the regulator or charger voltages that indicate full charge over temperature.
Note that a cold battery can accept a higher voltage charge level than a hot one, without risk of overcharge. The airplane's mechanical voltage regulator has temperature compensation. I don't if Honda Vreg does, though as I've never tested this function. If not, it may be one reason why so many complain about short battery life in their motorcycles.

Hope this helps,

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Author Topic: Electrical woes (Read 3894 times)

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