Topic: Electronic ignition

[nippon]

IMHO, open electronics have a better conduction of heat. Every single part is replaceable. Two years warranty. 
With the ignition key on (without running the engine), power supply to the coils is canceled after a short time, so
coils don't get hot.  Ignitions never have had a problem during rides in rain. I have not seen a smoking ignition until yet.

[Spanner 1]

IMHO the engine will supply a much higher temp. to the 4 semiconductors than they would reach during a duty cycle than if the circuit were remote from the engine. So that's one thing, second try shorting any of those components with a screwdriver blade or the hey key by mistake as your tightening the 3 hex screws.
Asking for trouble putting an 'exposed' circuit under a cover removable by 2 screws and presumes a level of finesse and extreme care that's, frankly, not there as regards the 'regular' wrencher  ........ with no caution supplied with the unit when purchased, I presume. Wouldn't it be waay better just covered with a plastic shield .
It could even be clear plastic so that folks can still marvel at the components ( I'm sorry THAT was sarcastic ).....

[eldar]

Touching the components is only possibly an issue when power is on to the unit. If your key is off, you can touch it all you want with anything you want. As for worrying about water, well water can affect points too. You get water on the points and it can cause misfiring as the water can prevent the gap required to fire the coil by bridging between the points.
besides that, in order for water to even be an issue, even without a decent gasket, you would have to be going through quite a bit of rain.
Heat is a non-issue. Sorry but it just isn't a problem with the components used. I know people like to use it as a talking point but it just can't stay in the kitchen. My points cover never gets that hot that I can't touch it. There is also NO combustion taking place next to the points area, the temperatures just to not get volcanic. And just cause you skin might get burnt, doesn't mean it is detrimental to plastics and other components, after all, the plastic insulation on wire, including those for the points and coils, lest anyone try to overlook those, does not melt at all.

[BobbyR]

I had a Dyna and it failed which seems to have become a problem in units bought 3-4 years ago. They had a stellar reputation for decades. Ok, bought a PAMCO and I will see how that works out.

Like OIL you will not find a consensus on this issue. You will find die hard points folks, and if you fiddle with them and maintain them points are fine. Nobody is wrong here, and nobody is 100% right.

Until my Dyna crapped out I was happy with it. With this PAMCO I stated the bike at under 30F with a battery that had not been charged months.  I rode until my nuts went numb, and the bike felt strong. When the bike reached operating temp, the idle rose to 2500 which was usually very stable under 1000.

I will ride longer when it warms up, if the PAMCO lasts I will be happy, if it craps out I have my points plate on the shelf.
 

All this means   

[Spanner 1]

O.K. so if it doesn't get hot enough under the points cover to melt the 2 ign. wires then it's o.k. for all electronics that might be installed there.... and you can short-out any of the exposed components all you like once the ign. is not on !!! Forgot to mention that a full 15 AMPS of current ( stock fused circuit to the ign. ) is available to fry any ( try it ! ) semiconductor on that board, the uppermost of which has it's pins about 2 mm from ground ! and the hex screw that mounts the plate.... playing with trouble IMO.

[jcarthel]

Simplicity and reliability go hand and hand.  The more complex something is, the greater the chance of failure.  I wish petronix made a kit for the cb 750.  I put one of their electronic ignition kits on my 1977 302 ford.  Remove the points plate, put the electronic ignition plate in and abra-cadabra, she runs at the top of her game all day long, day after day.  Petronix kits are so simple and very reliable.  The plate consists only of a plastic sealed magnetic sensor.  The kit came with a magnet for my distributor shaft.  Simple, when the sensor senses the magnet, the sensor triggers that cylinder to fire.  Anyone familar with  Petronix kits?  Would a dyna s be the most similar kit to Petronix available for a cb 750.

Justin

[dave500]

i cant hold my hand on my points cover eldar,i dont use points but my cover gets too hot to touch,a capacitor might still have residual energy shortly after switch off, so still fooling around with the exposed circuit even with the ignition off could cause a fault,aswell as your static maybe?

[Harsh]

So if I am reading a lot of this correctly it sounds like a number of the units discussed except the Dyna don't use a conformal coating.  The plastic stuff Duanob mentioned.  Being an electronics technician makes me wonder why an engineer of a circuit wouldn't use it.  It acts as protection against moisture, dust, chemicals, and temperature extremes that, if uncoated (non-protected), could result in damage or failure of the electronics.  It can also add some ESD (electrostatic discharge) protection.  Touching unprotected components isn't necessarily a good thing even if the power is off.  The oil from your fingerprints can be conductive in the presence of moisture.  Utilizing conformal coatings can reduce the effects of mechanical stress and vibrations on the circuit and its ability to cope in extreme temperatures.

[eldar]

Spanner, dave, I stand by my statement. Sorry but electronics are not that delicate anymore. You needs to stop thinking transistor radios from the 60s. There are electronics mounted right on car and motorcycle engines these days. Look at the cdi units on the dohc, a lot of those bikes still have their original units. Obviously they are not that fragile.
I understand, you like and want points, but that like of points does not automatically make electronics bad cause you wish it.

Bottom line is that you need to look at what is used today. Which one is better? I will tell you, it is not points. Car manufacturers like to cut corners and save money. Points are by far cheaper, yet they are sitting on the curb waiting to be used by diehards. Electronic is more expensive but better performing and every bit as reliable as points and virtually maintenance free. Yes, I know you will know someone's brother's cousin's boyfriend who had their car ignition fail. I have not and no one I know has.
The dyna unit is old tech and had a bad run from the factory. That was a factory issue, not an electronics issue.

The pamco works excellent, it has a proven record already on the xs650 long before being moved to the sohc.

If you want to be a points diehard, be one but denigrating electronic ignitions when you have no practical experience with them is not really worth your time. I see not a single person here has had a pamco failure.

[pamcopete]

PAMCO Taking a bath....Splish splash....

Splish Splash

[Deltarider]

Points are by far cheaper...
Electronic is more expensive...

Just curious where you learned that...
I was told it is the other way around. Ever heard of a manufacturer that had to replace a set of breaker points under warranty?
That's what you pay extra in advance when you buy electronic.
I do not mean to say breaker points are the better ignition. They're not. But speaking from experience (I built my own transistor ignition module long time ago): don't expect any improvement but near idle and at high rpm. That difference is marginal, mar-gi-nal and most of us won't even notice it.

Pamcopete, sorry to see you have this bladder problem. Admire your openess though.

[eldar]

Pete, shoulda held a hose over the thing. The pro points crowd still won't believe it!

Delta, most car points do not wear out as fast as cb points do. I have a friend that STILL drives and international Scout 2. it is a 76 model. Points did not need constant attention every couple thousand miles. He switched it to non-points system though  and now it starts and runs better.
As for cost, the initial cost would be lower for auto makers but points are just an old system whos time is past.  I suppose cost might be more if you include the distributor assembly.


The fact is that points COULD have a higher failure rate than any electronic system UNLESS you spend time on a regular basis servicing them. An electronic system requires no maintenance once put on. Sure, it MAY fail but then unless you dress your points and gap them regularly and then replace them after X # of miles, points WILL fail. So to keep points working, they require regular work.

I like doing minimal work and maximum riding since my riding season is not overly long. Therefore, electronic has been great. Even on 10+ hour rides with maybe 10 minutes at a time for gas stops, my S didn't miss a beat. it did not overheat, nothing melted from heat.
I still have my points plate but all it is doing is collecting dust.

Don't get me wrong, points had their use and were very important. Their day is just over.

[Spanner 1]

I haven't opened my points cover ( with points inside ) for over a year and I have rode my bike more in that time than I ever have.... just sayin' 

[BobbyR]

Is it really important what you have under that chrome cover. Or is it more inportant that the bike under your ass runs well and does not leave you stranded. Now if you have a cure for flat tires with tubes you have my complete attention. 

[eldar]

So, what do you suppose your gap looks like right now? Unless you are running Mark's unit, they have worn, especially the rubbing blocks without good greasing.

Well Bobby, you could weld a bead into your rim and seal the spokes and Wha-Laa! Tubeless tires! Probably less than ideal though.

[754]

 I have been riding a 750 since labor day 09. ...missed 20 days, the last 2 winters and less than 20 days this winter.. it may have been off the road about 3 or 4 months  since Sept 09.
  I rthink I looked at the points 2 or 3 times, have no idea how old they are.. may have been installed just before I got it.. Starts up fine if I have 3 volyts in trhe battery or more..

 I am not sure that all manufactureres use E-gnition solely due to cost or performance, they  cant count on the current techs  (majority of them)to work on points any more.

[754]

 i hate it when people say my bike cant do what it already did...

[BobbyR]

Well Bobby, you could weld a bead into your rim and seal the spokes and Wha-Laa! Tubeless tires! Probably less than ideal though.

We use a resin here that would have been perfect to fill in that section of the rim as seal the spoke holes.
Sadly, the rim is not really shaped for tubeless. i guess roadside assitance is what i will be stuck with. I am not crapping in the bushes on the center divider again. 

[Duanob]

i hate it when people say my bike cant do what it already did...

I hate to tell you this but it just can't

jcarthel: here here on the Pertronix. I've used three of them in various boats I've owned, never missed a beat in the harshest environment, high heat and salt air. I wish they made one for these old SOHC4s. Great dependable product and great customer service.

[BobbyR]

i hate it when people say my bike cant do what it already did...

I hate to tell you this but it just can't

jcarthel: here here on the Pertronix. I've used three of them in various boats I've owned, never missed a beat in the harshest environment, high heat and salt air. I wish they made one for these old SOHC4s. Great dependable product and great customer service.

A very close friend of mine is a major Pertronix distributor. He asked if they could help with a bike unit. They said they had no interest in bikes. Too much R&D for the numbers they would sell.

[pamcopete]

Pamcopete, sorry to see you have this bladder problem. Admire your openess though.

Yes, I've been to Amsterdam....I saw them piss in the streets...

[chewbacca5000]

PAMCO Taking a bath....Splish splash....

Splish Splash

Any idea when more Ultimates will be in Cb750supply.com?  I got one on hold, but am waiting on the Ultimate coils.  Thanks!

[pamcopete]

PAMCO Taking a bath....Splish splash....

Splish Splash

Any idea when more Ultimates will be in Cb750supply.com?  I got one on hold, but am waiting on the Ultimate coils.  Thanks!

I'm sending a bunch of CB750 units to CB750 Supply that should be in their inventory by Wed.

[cougar]

Hey folks ; All this talk about these eletronic ignitions and you've not even touched on the fact that we have an Excellent one right here, http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0  This fellow is HondaMan ! The basic unit, $75 and it comes with a 5 year 100% Warranty ! It uses your stock points as the trigger (at low voltage, so no points burn out) to allow you the option of switching back to your points (if the unit dies,LOLOL) within a few minutes and be back on the road !! Plus he gives $1 back to our Forums. He even will do special stuff with each unit to help customize it for you ! Come on guys think about it !!!   ...cougar...     P.S. And no I don't work for him.

[AbbyRider]

Yeah - I was surprised that Hondaman's ignition system didn't get mentioned until now - it usually pops up 3 or 4 posts into an ignition thread. I've got mine ready and waiting to mount once my engine work is done and my bike starts getting reassembled. Looking forward to seeing how it does.