Author Topic: Vintage sidecar rebuild - new video (Read 152063 times)

Tintop · « **Reply #200 on:** July 16, 2012, 07:57:57 PM »

The dyno cost is based on the time scotty. Don't have the invoice handy, but it was about 1 3/4 hours @ $185 (including taxes). Of couse I should also add in the cost for the gas for the 3 1/2 hours on the road. So probably closer to $215+ total. Next time I'll make sure it's warmed up in the parking lot, so we don't waste that time in the dyno room. I'll also want to make sure I have my sync tool, and my own tools handy.

The rule of thumb I've always gone by was 3 steps in mains was the same as 1 in airs. So I agree trying 130's makes sense. If it's still over rich, then go back to 140's and up one on the airs. Then start going back down with the mains. I'm trying to find my tube chart. I know the ones I have go basically rich to lean - F9 / F11 / F16, but want to check out how they transition. The F11 is a Lotus TC tube, and the F16 was what we used in my Solo 1 2TG (bored/stroked to 1990).

Tintop · « **Reply #201 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:14:27 PM »

Quote from: Syscrush on July 16, 2012, 06:27:46 PM

Media to come.

Tintop and Hopper did great. During the final (only time I saw them run) I could see them running/riding better with every lap. It was great seeing Tintop again, hate that I was at Shannonville with bwaller AGAIN and managed to miss him AGAIN!

Thanks for the comp syscrush, can't wait to see the media.

scottly · « **Reply #202 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:31:29 PM »

Quote from: Tintop on July 16, 2012, 07:57:57 PM

The rule of thumb I've always gone by was 3 steps in mains was the same as 1 in airs.

I think it's 3 steps in air =1 step in mains.

At least you can do changes easily, to minimize dyno time; with the Seeley frame, I can't change mains without disturbing the carb mounting. I can change the idles if I remove the fuel tank.

Tintop · « **Reply #203 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:57:54 PM »

I'll double check that scotty, remember it as 3 mains to 1 air. Did fine a link to some great tube charts, but it won't let me post the link.

Tintop · « **Reply #204 on:** July 17, 2012, 06:16:11 AM »

scotty.....Got out my Passini book, and yes your correct, he states > "2 1/2 to 3 sizes of air corrector have an effect on full bore mixture about equal to one size of main jet." Also - "..the mains effect total range while the air corrector has more and more say as revs rise, although at no time is the effect negligible." So I'll chart out what I have in mains and airs to see what possible. The F16's though look to be a good choice. If it is still slightly rich on top, the F11's should fix that.

scottly · « **Reply #205 on:** July 17, 2012, 07:58:51 PM »

Quote from: Tintop on July 15, 2012, 06:15:27 PM

The sync is not spot on anymore, but it now idles not bad at about 2K when warmed up completely. This is probably about as good as that will get because of the 34mm chokes.

The size of the chokes does not affect the idle; the fuel flows from the tiny holes near the nearly closed throttle blades, where the velocity is high. Refer to fig 1-6 in the Haynes book. Don't waste valuable dyno time trying to sync 1 Weber; in your case, all you are doing is fine-tuning the idle mixture.
Just curious, what do your plugs look like after the race?

scottly · « **Reply #206 on:** July 17, 2012, 08:11:52 PM »

Quote from: Tintop on July 17, 2012, 06:16:11 AM

So I'll chart out what I have in mains and airs to see what possible. The F16's though look to be a good choice. If it is still slightly rich on top, the F11's should fix that.

I'm running F11's with 185 airs. (had to do a search for my own thread to verify that.

)

Syscrush · « **Reply #207 on:** July 17, 2012, 08:48:29 PM »

Sorry, got tied up tonight. Pics coming tomorrow!

scottly · « **Reply #208 on:** July 17, 2012, 08:58:51 PM »

Quote from: Syscrush on July 17, 2012, 08:48:29 PM

Sorry, got tied up tonight. Pics coming tomorrow!

NOW!!!

Tintop · « **Reply #209 on:** July 17, 2012, 09:10:56 PM »

Must have been 50+ taken by various others, amd I dont' have one.

Tell that cute wife of yours, she's just going have to be understanding, and wait. Photo withdrawal can be a serious medical issue.

Last first - the plugs were a med/dark tan on the insulator, and black around the outside. Given what the A/R graph showed, they should have been all black. The exhaust however is very black.

re idle & sync - I need it to run much better at low speed, just for getting around the pits & staging for starts. I shortened my secondary return spring and that helped. Think part of the original idle issue was the butterfly(s) were not closing completely all the time; and leaving the 1st progression hole uncovered sometimes. The choke size will have an effect on venturi air velocity (at idle), and therefore fuel atomization pasted the butterfly. Remember this is a twin, with both pistons moving together. All that said, just using my hand to cover the intakes, I could feel a difference between the barrels. Getting the 'feel' better through the idle screws improved also things at the track. Not expecting street bike idle, just want consistancy. However, getting the mid /top end sorted is the primary goal right now

scottly · « **Reply #210 on:** July 17, 2012, 10:02:21 PM »

Quote from: Tintop on July 17, 2012, 09:10:56 PM

Think part of the original idle issue was the butterfly(s) were not closing completely all the time; and leaving the 1st progression hole uncovered sometimes.

I've seen this before on Holley 4 barrel carbs with big cams; in order to adjust the idle speed up, the progression holes would be uncovered, resulting in a very rich, uneven idle. The fix was to drill a hole in each primary throttle plate, to allow more air with the plate closed. Thankfully, Webers don't require such brutality. If it still runs rich with the butterfly's closed against the idle speed screw, you might want to try 40 idles?
I would have expected very dark/black insulators, also, based on the A/F. Not sure just how rich a motor has to be before it starts carbon fouling?

Syscrush · « **Reply #211 on:** July 18, 2012, 07:02:34 AM »

Quote from: scottly on July 17, 2012, 10:02:21 PM

I would have expected very dark/black insulators, also, based on the A/F. Not sure just how rich a motor has to be before it starts carbon fouling?

Does that suggest that there's some validity to the theory of artificially high AFR #'s caused by the accel pump?

Tintop · « **Reply #212 on:** July 18, 2012, 09:48:09 AM »

Quote from: Syscrush on July 18, 2012, 07:02:34 AM

Quote from: scottly on July 17, 2012, 10:02:21 PM
I would have expected very dark/black insulators, also, based on the A/F. Not sure just how rich a motor has to be before it starts carbon fouling?
Does that suggest that there's some validity to the theory of artificially high AFR #'s caused by the accel pump?

The way the plugs are reading I would have expected the A/R graph to be reversed. I'm having serious doubts about the validity of all the results. I know the HP & torque #'s are off. I'm going to contact another dyno shop, and see about setting up something there.

Now post those pics syscrush.

scottly · « **Reply #213 on:** July 18, 2012, 07:01:20 PM »

Quote from: Syscrush on July 18, 2012, 07:02:34 AM

Quote from: scottly on July 17, 2012, 10:02:21 PM
I would have expected very dark/black insulators, also, based on the A/F. Not sure just how rich a motor has to be before it starts carbon fouling?
Does that suggest that there's some validity to the theory of artificially high AFR #'s caused by the accel pump?

The accel pump should have been out of the picture by 6200 RPM, where the graph shows the AFR to be the richest.

Syscrush · « **Reply #214 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:10:17 PM »

OK, here come some somewhat random pics. I'll do Tintop's photos first. Not many action shots, my point & shoot just can't image the action on the track from the grandstands.

Click for larger...

The business end...

Lots of nice little touches on this rig.

Larkspur rig and my cute wife.

Where the magic happens.

No, Tintop didn't p!$$ himself on the track, the carb puked a bit of fuel on the seat...

Getting ready for action.

Wow you guys are really doing it!!!

scottly · « **Reply #215 on:** July 18, 2012, 09:03:54 PM »

AWESOME!!!!!

BTW, Webers DO NOT PUKE!. They are known to weep a bit, though. It's known as the Weber weep.

Tintop · « **Reply #216 on:** July 19, 2012, 04:13:45 AM »

Thanks for posting up the photos syscrusch.

Any chance you can get that short bit of video up too?

The 'weep'

was from the #1 side. It was the one that was spitting back, and had lower 'suck'. Mainly the result of poor sync. Got the sync closer before the final, unfortunately race fuel tends to stain paint!

The action shot - the pavement in the background is a 1/4 mile drag strip we run backwards. 5th gear flat to just past the 50ft marker was my turn in. Then 4th to the point in the pic. The pavement mid pic is a chicane, with a high inside curb on the exit. Touch it with the chair wheel & things get exciting.

Then braking & downshift to 2nd (pic), for the ess's. You want a late entry to setup for the last corner onto the pit straight. Think I only got that setup corner right 1/3 of the time.

Syscrush · « **Reply #217 on:** July 19, 2012, 04:38:43 AM »

Quote from: Tintop on July 19, 2012, 04:13:45 AM

Thanks for posting up the photos syscrusch. Any chance you can get that short bit of video up too?

Glad you like the pics.

I'll have more pics and some vids up this weekend.

bwaller · « **Reply #218 on:** July 19, 2012, 05:36:57 AM »

Sorry to have missed you syscrush, hopefully you can make it to Mosport. Tell me, did your wife enjoy herself or was she bored to tears? It's my unofficial survey and the results are anything but scientific.

Truth is we need people to come out, and it's valuable to hear what everyone thinks.

Good pics by the way.

Syscrush · « **Reply #219 on:** July 19, 2012, 05:54:51 AM »

Quote from: bwaller on July 19, 2012, 05:36:57 AM

Sorry to have missed you syscrush, hopefully you can make it to Mosport.

Yeah, this was twice. I don't know if you remember, but we found out after the fact that we were both doing the FAST school at the same time last year. Makes me feel like getting to Mosport should be a MISSION. But I don't know yet if I'll be able to make it.

Quote

Tell me, did your wife enjoy herself or was she bored to tears? It's my unofficial survey and the results are anything but scientific. Truth is we need people to come out, and it's valuable to hear what everyone thinks.

My wife definitely enjoyed the racing. She rides, too - she's got a Monster 620 and a CBR125R.

The first time she saw the sidecars taking that hard left with the passengers' bodies 3" off the pavement, she actually screamed a little - she was sure she was about to see someone die.

And in the other classes, she saw a lot of bikes she liked a lot. It's official, that girl likes twins, period.

Quote

Good pics by the way.

They're OK. I got a few pics of yours from the stand, too. Hopefully I can post 'em up tonight.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - that bike is too beautiful to be on the track!

Syscrush · « **Reply #220 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:32:47 PM »

Next up, a few pics of bwaller's beautiful ride:

Before practice, lined up with a beautiful Katana rocking a set of Astralites.

Lined up before the sighting lap.

Too pretty/clean for the track!

On the pole, ready to go.

Syscrush · « **Reply #221 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:40:26 PM »

Here come some random sidecar shots...

FuZZie · « **Reply #222 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:43:48 PM »

Great pic's Syscrush, exactly what the tread needs!

Syscrush · « **Reply #223 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:44:56 PM »

And the rest. Plenty of stuff for a vintage bike aficionado to lust after!

Tintop · « **Reply #224 on:** July 19, 2012, 04:25:13 PM »

thanks for posting all the additional pics syscrush. do like the one of the kid, got to start them young!

the ones of bwaller should probably also be in his thread - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83871.0 as more people will see them there.

The #4 sidecar is the perenial class champion (wife is passenger

), and the builder of most (all?) of the other ones pictured, including mine (2007). The BMW was just finished before the first race of the season. The Duke #19 is the club President.

News:

Author Topic: Vintage sidecar rebuild - new video (Read 152063 times)