Author Topic: Is it the Solenoid? (Read 9548 times)

adr3naline · « **on:** February 27, 2012, 10:56:56 PM »

So, I believe my solenoid is bad... 1979 CB650.

I've jumped the solenoid with a screwdriver and my starter motor turns over. But I don't get anything with my starter switch. When my ignition switch is "ON", I get power to my starter switch (black wire), and then also when I push my starter switch I get power back to my solenoid (yellow/red wire)... but nothing.

Are there any other tests I need to do? I see other solenoid tests suggest checking the ground connection of the solenoid, but I couldn't see any specific ground line coming off of it. Am I wrong?

(I'm trying my best at electrical stuff... but I need your help).

Thanks!

w1sa · « **Reply #1 on:** February 28, 2012, 02:07:21 AM »

The starter relay circuit requires starter button power to the y/r (which you seem to have) and, a ground path from the solenoid/relay. That is the green/red to the neutral switch and also the clutch switch. That's why the bike must be in neutral or clutch pulled to allow starter motor action..................check the ground wire paths to the neutral switch and clutch switch for proper/clean connections and if that's good... also check the circuit for continuity.

lucky · « **Reply #2 on:** February 28, 2012, 06:46:15 AM »

If you activated the solenoid with a screwdriver it is not the solenoid.

It is the start button more than likely. very fragile and ifffyyy.

Duke McDukiedook · « **Reply #3 on:** February 28, 2012, 07:17:40 AM »

Odds are the starter switch is the problem, +1.

adr3naline · « **Reply #4 on:** February 28, 2012, 07:37:24 AM »

For now I just tested the starter switch with a light test, and the wire going back to the solenoid lit up... so maybe I just need to do a voltage test now? To see? How could it be the starter switch if my yellow/red wire has no power, then when I press it it gets power?

Duke McDukiedook · « **Reply #5 on:** February 28, 2012, 08:39:18 AM »

Wait, the screwdriver bypasses the solenoid so you may have a bad solenoid if the starter switch passed a light test.
Did you get the bike to fire up (as in run) with the screwdriver bypass?

adr3naline · « **Reply #6 on:** February 28, 2012, 08:47:14 AM »

I got it to turn over, but I didn't have the tank on so I didn't go any further. It would crank with the screwdriver bridging the posts.

The only thin the starter switch does is turn the neutral light on when I push it, and back off when I let go. The solenoid doesn't make any sounds at all.

Duke McDukiedook · « **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2012, 10:11:04 AM »

If it does not make a clicking noise at least then the solenoid is probably bad.

adr3naline · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2012, 10:49:48 AM »

I just ordered a new solenoid... We'll see what happens I guess.

bobth1019 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2012, 03:31:24 PM »

Interesting, I was just about to post here with pretty much the exact same set of issues.

With test light I get juice across the start button and kill switches and if I run a jumper wire across the starter relay B and M terminals the starter will turn over. Lights work so that much is good just no starter connection from the start button. I pulled apart the switches and cleaned what I can and all seems ok. And thing is I did replace the starter relay and still no luck.

How did replacing it work for you? did that fix it or still hunting? I know how frustrating this is, believe me.

Bob

w1sa · « **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2012, 05:34:04 PM »

You seem to have some interesting things going on here..........

Quote from: adr3naline on February 28, 2012, 07:37:24 AM

For now I just tested the starter switch with a light test, and the wire going back to the solenoid lit up... so maybe I just need to do a voltage test now? To see? How could it be the starter switch if my yellow/red wire has no power, then when I press it it gets power?

Did you actually connect your test light at the y/r starter solenoid/ relay terminal or......at the y/r at the starter button switch at the handlebar control?

Quote from: adr3naline on February 28, 2012, 08:47:14 AM

The only thin the starter switch does is turn the neutral light on when I push it, and back off when I let go. The solenoid doesn't make any sounds at all.

The neutral light is not activated by the starter button activation/power supply............you may have a wiring problem in your switch control/circuit.

Try connecting your test light at the starter solenoid/relay terminal for y/r, depress starter button and your test light should glow (yes/no)...............move the light probe to the g/r terminal and depress the starter button for a few seconds.....does it also light (dimly?) (yes/no)

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 28, 2012, 05:44:17 PM »

OP, if when you 'push the start button and the N light comes on ' would indicate a classic example of 30+ yr. old wiring connections being all oxidised... every bike has it. Some fix it, some ride their bikes after many hours of mech. wrenching and 0 hrs. of electrical service/attention. Guess which bikes quit due to ' no power to' ..... ( fill in the blank ) ! A great time to shine-up every bullet and spade connector on your bike along with the fuses/fuseblock and make it solid....... ya want to ride as carefree as possible, right ?
Oh, and your starter solenoid may be stuck, or more likely has a poor ground or both !
A friend of mine and a member here paid a fortune to have his bike hauled on a tow truck for 100 miles because his ign. failed due to corrosion on his battery + and - terminal connections... Fix it now or later, your choice

bobth1019 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 28, 2012, 06:17:50 PM »

Quote from: w1sa on February 28, 2012, 05:34:04 PM

You seem to have some interesting things going on here..........

Quote from: adr3naline on February 28, 2012, 07:37:24 AM
For now I just tested the starter switch with a light test, and the wire going back to the solenoid lit up... so maybe I just need to do a voltage test now? To see? How could it be the starter switch if my yellow/red wire has no power, then when I press it it gets power?

Did you actually connect your test light at the y/r starter solenoid/ relay terminal or......at the y/r at the starter button switch at the handlebar control?

Quote from: adr3naline on February 28, 2012, 08:47:14 AM
The only thin the starter switch does is turn the neutral light on when I push it, and back off when I let go. The solenoid doesn't make any sounds at all.

The neutral light is not activated by the starter button activation/power supply............you may have a wiring problem in your switch control/circuit.

Try connecting your test light at the starter solenoid/relay terminal for y/r, depress starter button and your test light should glow (yes/no)...............move the light probe to the g/r terminal and depress the starter button for a few seconds.....does it also light (dimly?) (yes/no)

Could you tell me what it would indicate if the test light does light at both y/r and g/r? Mine do light up. I've got very similar issues so it would be helpful to know. thank you

w1sa · « **Reply #13 on:** February 28, 2012, 08:16:10 PM »

Quote from: bobth1019 on February 28, 2012, 06:17:50 PM

Quote from: w1sa on February 28, 2012, 05:34:04 PM
You seem to have some interesting things going on here..........

Quote from: adr3naline on February 28, 2012, 07:37:24 AM
For now I just tested the starter switch with a light test, and the wire going back to the solenoid lit up... so maybe I just need to do a voltage test now? To see? How could it be the starter switch if my yellow/red wire has no power, then when I press it it gets power?

Did you actually connect your test light at the y/r starter solenoid/ relay terminal or......at the y/r at the starter button switch at the handlebar control?

Quote from: adr3naline on February 28, 2012, 08:47:14 AM
The only thin the starter switch does is turn the neutral light on when I push it, and back off when I let go. The solenoid doesn't make any sounds at all.

The neutral light is not activated by the starter button activation/power supply............you may have a wiring problem in your switch control/circuit.

Try connecting your test light at the starter solenoid/relay terminal for y/r, depress starter button and your test light should glow (yes/no)...............move the light probe to the g/r terminal and depress the starter button for a few seconds.....does it also light (dimly?) (yes/no)

Could you tell me what it would indicate if the test light does light at both y/r and g/r? Mine do light up. I've got very similar issues so it would be helpful to know. thank you

It tells you that delivered voltage is passing thru the solenoid wiring to your test light......If you can prove continuity from that g/r terminal to the bike's ground/earth system, the problem is almost certainly crudded up/ corroded internals of the solenoid mechanism itself...(especially if the starter motor spins when shorting the two solenoid posts)

adr3naline · « **Reply #14 on:** February 28, 2012, 11:40:44 PM »

Wow, this all was a good surprise! I will be doing all these new tests tomorrow and report back. Thanks everyone!

adr3naline · « **Reply #15 on:** February 28, 2012, 11:51:11 PM »

Quote from: Spanner 1 on February 28, 2012, 05:44:17 PM

OP, if when you 'push the start button and the N light comes on ' would indicate a classic example of 30+ yr. old wiring connections being all oxidised... every bike has it. Some fix it, some ride their bikes after many hours of mech. wrenching and 0 hrs. of electrical service/attention. Guess which bikes quit due to ' no power to' ..... ( fill in the blank ) ! A great time to shine-up every bullet and spade connector on your bike along with the fuses/fuseblock and make it solid....... ya want to ride as carefree as possible, right ?
Oh, and your starter solenoid may be stuck, or more likely has a poor ground or both !
A friend of mine and a member here paid a fortune to have his bike hauled on a tow truck for 100 miles because his ign. failed due to corrosion on his battery + and - terminal connections... Fix it now or later, your choice

So, some previous owner hacked my wiring harness pretty good. I'm missing a bunch of connectors, and those are now just clamped or even twisted together. Any complete harness would be better... But, would buying another 30+ old harness just keep the bike from reliability? Are there better options?

bobth1019 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 29, 2012, 02:25:56 AM »

Quote from: w1sa on February 28, 2012, 08:16:10 PM

Quote from: bobth1019 on February 28, 2012, 06:17:50 PM
Quote from: w1sa on February 28, 2012, 05:34:04 PM
You seem to have some interesting things going on here..........

Quote from: adr3naline on February 28, 2012, 07:37:24 AM
For now I just tested the starter switch with a light test, and the wire going back to the solenoid lit up... so maybe I just need to do a voltage test now? To see? How could it be the starter switch if my yellow/red wire has no power, then when I press it it gets power?

Did you actually connect your test light at the y/r starter solenoid/ relay terminal or......at the y/r at the starter button switch at the handlebar control?

Quote from: adr3naline on February 28, 2012, 08:47:14 AM
The only thin the starter switch does is turn the neutral light on when I push it, and back off when I let go. The solenoid doesn't make any sounds at all.

The neutral light is not activated by the starter button activation/power supply............you may have a wiring problem in your switch control/circuit.

Try connecting your test light at the starter solenoid/relay terminal for y/r, depress starter button and your test light should glow (yes/no)...............move the light probe to the g/r terminal and depress the starter button for a few seconds.....does it also light (dimly?) (yes/no)

Could you tell me what it would indicate if the test light does light at both y/r and g/r? Mine do light up. I've got very similar issues so it would be helpful to know. thank you

It tells you that delivered voltage is passing thru the solenoid wiring to your test light......If you can prove continuity from that g/r terminal to the bike's ground/earth system, the problem is almost certainly crudded up/ corroded internals of the solenoid mechanism itself...(especially if the starter motor spins when shorting the two solenoid posts)

Thanks...at least in my case the relay/solenoid is brand new as I replaced it thinking it might be the issue. So although it could be that it would seem less likely than another problem, yes?

w1sa · « **Reply #17 on:** February 29, 2012, 04:08:22 AM »

Yes, from what you say, it seems your problem might be in the ground side.........have you tried the starter with the clutch lever pulled?...............also, you could create a temporary ground from the g/r terminal to the engine/frame, and give it a test try.

As previously stated, the importance of clean secure connections should not be underestimated........a multimeter is also very useful for this type of problem solving.

adr3naline · « **Reply #18 on:** February 29, 2012, 11:01:59 AM »

Quote from: w1sa on February 29, 2012, 04:08:22 AM

Yes, from what you say, it seems your problem might be in the ground side.........have you tried the starter with the clutch lever pulled?

Yes, same situation.

Quote from: w1sa on February 29, 2012, 04:08:22 AM

you could create a temporary ground from the g/r terminal to the engine/frame, and give it a test try.

Where does the g/r wire ground too? On the wire diagram it says that the g/r goes to the starter disconnect switch (which I assume is in the starter?).

I currently don't have a headlight on right now, and the 2 green wires in the bundle to the headlight are loose. I have connected them temporarily.

Quote from: w1sa on February 29, 2012, 04:08:22 AM

As previously stated, the importance of clean secure connections should not be underestimated........a multimeter is also very useful for this type of problem solving.

A new wire harness might be in my future. It would make it so much easier to put the bike back together... There's plenty on ebay it looks like!

Duke McDukiedook · « **Reply #19 on:** February 29, 2012, 11:55:03 AM »

Previous PO might have butchered the harness to correct the 'hot start' issue with 650s.

nwrocker · « **Reply #20 on:** February 29, 2012, 12:42:53 PM »

You can test the switch with a electrical light pen thingy, by checking the 4-pin harness in the back of the headlight. The handlebar switch leads to a ground. It comes into the switch as the yellow/red wire and comes out a different color that plugs into the green/red (neutral safety) ground in the headlight. Just clip the pen to the engine to ground it and touch the back of the 4-pin connector with the light pen while depressing the switch. There are four wires that are in that connector. (black, black/white, yellow/red and the fourth one). The fourth one is the wire that grounds the handlebar switch. If your light pen does not light up when you depress the switch, you may have a bad switch or the switch from the wrong year. I had to rebuild mine because of the same problem.

w1sa · « **Reply #21 on:** February 29, 2012, 03:13:22 PM »

Adr3naline,

Did you do the light test at the starter solenoid relay terminals? If so, what was the result?

Quote from: adr3naline on February 29, 2012, 11:01:59 AM

Quote from: w1sa on February 29, 2012, 04:08:22 AM
Yes, from what you say, it seems your problem might be in the ground side.........have you tried the starter with the clutch lever pulled?

Yes, same situation.

Quote from: w1sa on February 29, 2012, 04:08:22 AM
you could create a temporary ground from the g/r terminal to the engine/frame, and give it a test try.

Where does the g/r wire ground too? On the wire diagram it says that the g/r goes to the starter disconnect switch (which I assume is in the starter?).

I currently don't have a headlight on right now, and the 2 green wires in the bundle to the headlight are loose. I have connected them temporarily.

Quote from: w1sa on February 29, 2012, 04:08:22 AM
As previously stated, the importance of clean secure connections should not be underestimated........a multimeter is also very useful for this type of problem solving.

A new wire harness might be in my future. It would make it so much easier to put the bike back together... There's plenty on ebay it looks like!

The g/r goes to frame ground (from the starter relay) via two paths.......the clutch lever switch and the gearbox neutral select switch............unless one of these is providing a ground, the starter solenoid will not operate.

bobth1019 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 29, 2012, 07:09:47 PM »

Quote from: w1sa on February 29, 2012, 04:08:22 AM

Yes, from what you say, it seems your problem might be in the ground side.........have you tried the starter with the clutch lever pulled?...............also, you could create a temporary ground from the g/r terminal to the engine/frame, and give it a test try.

As previously stated, the importance of clean secure connections should not be underestimated........a multimeter is also very useful for this type of problem solving.

You nailed it! I ran a wire off the g/r terminal to the frame, pushed the start button and it turned over just like its supposed to. So I assume it's a matter of just cleaning that connector or replacing?

I really want to thank you for your help, w1sa in particular...I've found the people in this forum to be consistently patient and knowledgeable. And adr3naline I hope you get your bike running...I'll follow this and see how you do. Good luck.

w1sa · « **Reply #23 on:** February 29, 2012, 08:15:49 PM »

Quote from: bobth1019 on February 29, 2012, 07:09:47 PM

You nailed it! I ran a wire off the g/r terminal to the frame, pushed the start button and it turned over just like its supposed to. So I assume it's a matter of just cleaning that connector or replacing?

Hey, that's great...............by all means give the connector a careful clean and test its security.......you may find however that the actual ground problem is further down stream....as I said before, that ground path splits. The most conclusive and strait forward test is with a meter (ohm scale)...one probe to g/r and the other to frame, should show about zero ohms on the meter, for a good ground connection............similar with the clutch lever pulled,bike in gear.

Without a meter, bike in neutral, a serviceable neutral light illuminates....that demonstrates that the neutral switch at the gearbox is working ok..if that's your situation you have lost ground connection between the g/r terminal and the junction/join in the line from the neutral light.....(that section (g/r term to junction) also contains a diode/ connection which could be faulty).......alternately, if the neutral light fails to illuminate, the prime cause of the problem could be anywhere from the neutral light to the gearbox end but most likely at the gearbox end.

bobth1019 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 01, 2012, 02:56:48 AM »

Quote from: w1sa on February 29, 2012, 08:15:49 PM

Quote from: bobth1019 on February 29, 2012, 07:09:47 PM

You nailed it! I ran a wire off the g/r terminal to the frame, pushed the start button and it turned over just like its supposed to. So I assume it's a matter of just cleaning that connector or replacing?

Hey, that's great...............by all means give the connector a careful clean and test its security.......you may find however that the actual ground problem is further down stream....as I said before, that ground path splits. The most conclusive and strait forward test is with a meter (ohm scale)...one probe to g/r and the other to frame, should show about zero ohms on the meter, for a good ground connection............similar with the clutch lever pulled,bike in gear.

Without a meter, bike in neutral, a serviceable neutral light illuminates....that demonstrates that the neutral switch at the gearbox is working ok..if that's your situation you have lost ground connection between the g/r terminal and the junction/join in the line from the neutral light.....(that section (g/r term to junction) also contains a diode/ connection which could be faulty).......alternately, if the neutral light fails to illuminate, the prime cause of the problem could be anywhere from the neutral light to the gearbox end but most likely at the gearbox end.

Got it. Little bit after I wrote my response I realized from what you had said I wasn't done. oh, well...onwards...there is a good neutral light and re "one probe to g/r and the other to frame, should show about zero ohms on the meter, for a good ground connection............similar with the clutch lever pulled,bike in gear." I got zero ohms in both cases. Suggestions? And again, thank you very much for your help.

w1sa · « **Reply #25 on:** March 01, 2012, 03:44:45 AM »

Did you clean and check the terminal connector/spade(s) before the meter test?....... Did you retry the starter?.......

If you've done these things and can repeat the tests with the same results several times.....and the starter solenoid still fails to operate as it should...

, I can only imagine a loose/intermittent/poor connection/condition (power or ground), somewhere...................I'll give it some more thought tho'

adr3naline · « **Reply #26 on:** March 01, 2012, 02:32:29 PM »

So, I've traced my g/r wire now to my clutch, and then into what would be my headlight. I've got continuity between one of the big open ended prong connector (#1 in picture)... but I'm not sure what's supposed to connect to that prong connector (#1). Does anybody else have a CB650 that might know?

My ground connectors were a little corroded inside the black pin connector (#2), so I washed those out with vinegar, brushed up the pins slightly, and I can get continuity through it now.

The #3 & #4 (headlight) bundles have temporary yellow screw cap connectors for now to be able to diagnose these issues.

I just need to know what #1 is supposed to connect with. Thanks!

bobth1019 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 02, 2012, 03:46:34 PM »

Quote from: w1sa on March 01, 2012, 03:44:45 AM

Did you clean and check the terminal connector/spade(s) before the meter test?....... Did you retry the starter?.......

If you've done these things and can repeat the tests with the same results several times.....and the starter solenoid still fails to operate as it should... , I can only imagine a loose/intermittent/poor connection/condition (power or ground), somewhere...................I'll give it some more thought tho'

A bit of a issue... I cleaned the R/g ground connector and turned the key and smoke from the rectifier...melted it very nicely...at this point I'm thinking replace the harness and take it from there. Maybe not the best approach but for what it will run on ebay not so much. Question is if someone knows does a 1981 cb750c harness interchange with a 1980 cb750c harness? Mine is the 1980. Thanks

bobth1019 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 02, 2012, 04:01:03 PM »

Quote from: bobth1019 on March 02, 2012, 03:46:34 PM

Quote from: w1sa on March 01, 2012, 03:44:45 AM
Did you clean and check the terminal connector/spade(s) before the meter test?....... Did you retry the starter?.......

If you've done these things and can repeat the tests with the same results several times.....and the starter solenoid still fails to operate as it should... , I can only imagine a loose/intermittent/poor connection/condition (power or ground), somewhere...................I'll give it some more thought tho'

A bit of a issue... I cleaned the R/g ground connector and turned the key and smoke from the rectifier...melted it very nicely...at this point I'm thinking replace the harness and take it from there. Maybe not the best approach but for what it will run on ebay not so much. Question is if someone knows does a 1981 cb750c harness interchange with a 1980 cb750c harness? Mine is the 1980. Thanks

Should have been more specific.... the 2 prong silicon rectifier

w1sa · « **Reply #29 on:** March 03, 2012, 07:57:38 PM »

Quote from: adr3naline on March 01, 2012, 02:32:29 PM

I just need to know what #1 is supposed to connect with. Thanks!

If the wire is green as it appears, it is quite likely an original spare ground connector.....could prove useful!

Quote from: bobth1019 on March 02, 2012, 04:01:03 PM

Quote from: bobth1019 on March 02, 2012, 03:46:34 PM
Quote from: w1sa on March 01, 2012, 03:44:45 AM
Did you clean and check the terminal connector/spade(s) before the meter test?....... Did you retry the starter?.......

If you've done these things and can repeat the tests with the same results several times.....and the starter solenoid still fails to operate as it should... , I can only imagine a loose/intermittent/poor connection/condition (power or ground), somewhere...................I'll give it some more thought tho'

A bit of a issue... I cleaned the R/g ground connector and turned the key and smoke from the rectifier...melted it very nicely...at this point I'm thinking replace the harness and take it from there. Maybe not the best approach but for what it will run on ebay not so much. Question is if someone knows does a 1981 cb750c harness interchange with a 1980 cb750c harness? Mine is the 1980. Thanks

Should have been more specific.... the 2 prong silicon rectifier

The '80 and '81 harness's carry different part numbers....should be similar, but I don'tknow the specific differences.....can anyone else help here?

Did you check the harness for absolute damage....it might be limited to the silicon rectifier/diode section and/or other repairable points?

bobth1019 · « **Reply #30 on:** March 04, 2012, 04:56:17 AM »

Quote from: w1sa on March 03, 2012, 07:57:38 PM

Quote from: adr3naline on March 01, 2012, 02:32:29 PM

I just need to know what #1 is supposed to connect with. Thanks!

If the wire is green as it appears, it is quite likely an original spare ground connector.....could prove useful!

Quote from: bobth1019 on March 02, 2012, 04:01:03 PM
Quote from: bobth1019 on March 02, 2012, 03:46:34 PM
Quote from: w1sa on March 01, 2012, 03:44:45 AM
Did you clean and check the terminal connector/spade(s) before the meter test?....... Did you retry the starter?.......

If you've done these things and can repeat the tests with the same results several times.....and the starter solenoid still fails to operate as it should... , I can only imagine a loose/intermittent/poor connection/condition (power or ground), somewhere...................I'll give it some more thought tho'

A bit of a issue... I cleaned the R/g ground connector and turned the key and smoke from the rectifier...melted it very nicely...at this point I'm thinking replace the harness and take it from there. Maybe not the best approach but for what it will run on ebay not so much. Question is if someone knows does a 1981 cb750c harness interchange with a 1980 cb750c harness? Mine is the 1980. Thanks

Should have been more specific.... the 2 prong silicon rectifier

The '80 and '81 harness's carry different part numbers....should be similar, but I don'tknow the specific differences.....can anyone else help here?

Did you check the harness for absolute damage....it might be limited to the silicon rectifier/diode section and/or other repairable points?

Thank you.... I saw the unmatching numbers and stuck with an 80 harness. Might be a non-fix but at the rate I'm going a spare doesn't seem like a bad thought. Actually replacing it will give me the chance to really go over connections and make certain they're clean, etc. If it creates more issues I can go back to the other one in any case. We shall see...should get it in a couple days. Thanks again.

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Author Topic: Is it the Solenoid? (Read 9548 times)