Topic: Slab Leak! (Drywall repair)

[Duke McDukiedook]

You will never live in CA, FL, LA, and a few other places in that case.

[fmctm1sw]

So I call the county people and they don't keep blueprints over 10 yrs.  My house was built in 1999.  there goes that idea.   

[BeSeeingYou]

House built in 1951 here with the old galvanized on the cold and copper on the hot, I think I will probably want to go all copper when the basement bathroom goes in this summer. I could see doing pex for supply feeds but I think I would want to do copper for the main run just for copper's sake.

You will find on galvanized systems it is the hot that plugs up and it had been replaced at one time so that is  why you have a combination of the two.  If you have galvanized anywhere near fixtures it is likely they are also partially plugged so don't count on reusing any of your fixtures.  I was a copper guy until recently when I did my first PEX job.  The homerun manifold layout with PEX has a lot of advantages.  You can also do remote manifolds or mimic the conventional copper layout.

[BeSeeingYou]

I spent a lot of time the last few days researching this.  I think I'd like to stay copper and route through the attic.  Routing this way seems to be the solution from the water leak people.  I sent all my photos to the insurance company so I should have an answer back tomorrow.  I'm wondering is how to best locate the pipes inside the walls without tearing everything up should I need to do this myself.  I looked at a few "metal finders" and have seen varied reviews on their performance.  I know this is "a job for the pros" but for nearly 3 grand to do the hot piping alone, I could get real good at sweating pipes together. 

My two cents.  With the accessible attic space it should be a doable project for you with a little help.  Locate the plumbing wall headers and drill and drop in the pipe from above.  Getting in long enough sections could be an issue depending on roof height at the locations.  This is where PEX may be handy as you could pull the pipe in with a pull string run between the two points.  Nothing wrong with mixing the two where needed.  Sheetrock is easy to repair so I never hesitate to punch a small hand size hole if I need access.  Anchoring the pipe may get a little shortchanged in this whole scenario but do what you can.  I am thinking that much of your piping comes up from below so maybe it is only in the way at the fixture.  Can you leave most of it in place and just completely isolate it?  Cut it off just a little below the fixtures.

This is the kind of stuff I enjoy tackling.  It's the challenge....to bad you're far away.

[fmctm1sw]

I am thinking that much of your piping comes up from below so maybe it is only in the way at the fixture.  Can you leave most of it in place and just completely isolate it?  Cut it off just a little below the fixtures.

What I planned on doing at this point is replacing the run from behind the water heater to whever it ends up.  From the direction of the pipe under the slab, it appears to head for an area near a gaggle items including the washing machine and master bathroom sinks.  My idea is to find the piping in there and cut off the copper pipe out of the slab and run my new line into it.  It will make a lot more sense when I take pictures.

The more and more I think about, the more I think I can do it.  Anyway, the insurance company will leave me no choice if they won't help pay for the work.  I looked into CPVC vs copper.  While I like the simplicity and cost of CPVC, I'm concerned about what I read about expansion/contraction.  I remember growing up back home how loud water sounded running through PVC pipe in the basement too so I'm leaning toward copper at the moment.  I thought about PEX but I feel more comfortable about soldering than I think I would be with a crimper (that I would have to buy).  I read rodents like to chew it too, not that I expect/hope to see any in my attic.  I plan on buying a length of pipe and some fittings and doing some practice sweats on it.

I'm working on the issue of figuring out where the pipes are in my walls without being destructive.  I've been trying to track down a blueprint.  As luck would have it, a co worker went to college with the guy who owned the company that built all the houses back in my 'hood.  She knew his name and his wife's name and where the office was.  And I stress was.  She said he moved out a while back and wasn't there anymore.  Two phone numbers associated with that company on the web were invalid and there is no sign of him (or his wife) on facebook.  He's pushing 60 so he may have retired I guess.  I have a call in to the archives guy at the building permit office downtown.  That's probably the last chance at getting a blueprint. 

Another concern I have is finding nails when I drill holes for the pipe from the wall into the attic.  I learned this the hard way running CAT5 cable thorugh my attic, destroyed a nice 3/4" drill bit I had.  I hope those little metal finder things are good enough to sniff the nails out.

I should hear from the insurance company today.  I can get by until the weekend with the garden hose shower thing.  And I rerouted my dishwasher to the cold side if I haven't already mentioned it.

[Bob Wessner]

fmc, it finally dawned on me at some point yesterday, you were not talking about ground water seeping through cracks under due to pressure, but potable water leaking from buried (in the slab) plumbing. Sorry about that. Sounds like a doable project. Keep us posted on how it goes. It might be of benefit to someone else down the road.

[fmctm1sw]

fmc, it finally dawned on me at some point yesterday, you were not talking about ground water seeping through cracks under due to pressure, but potable water leaking from buried (in the slab) plumbing. Sorry about that. Sounds like a doable project. Keep us posted on how it goes. It might be of benefit to someone else down the road.

Yeah, my descriptions aren't the greatest.  Hard to communicate fully without good pictures.  I'll get some pictures of it all if I do it myself.

[Duke McDukiedook]

If you do not have the blueprints on hand and your house was not built in the last 5 years odds are pretty good you will not find any blueprints for your address.
Like I said before, you could always do copper for you main run and pex for your service lines.
Copper has proven properly installed to last 50 years or more. Pex is another plastic product that has yet to be seen if it will stand up to a true 40-50 year life cycle. Time will tell unless you want to be a guinea pig, remember polybutylene pipe anyone?

[kirkn]

Interesting thread (at least to me, since it's happening to YOU... ).

My house (as all houses here) is slab on grade.  The pipes are PVC and poured in the slab.  Before they pour the slab, they pressurize and cap the system with a gauge showing the pressure.  It has to hold for X amount of time before they pour the slab.  In my case, after the slab was poured, sometime during the rest of construction, the hot pipes sprung a leak somewhere, so they just abandoned it in place and ran all new hot water plumbing through PVC pipes through the attic.  No worries so far, knock-on-wood.     But, it's only been 5 years.

My dad, in Miami, has the same construction on his 70's era house.  A few years back, he noticed a hot spot in the kitchen floor.  Turned out his hot water line started leaking.  He never had any water inside, though.  He chiseled out a 12" x 12" square through the slab, found the leaker, made repairs and poured it back up.  No more issues, and hasn't yet had any other leaks that he knows of.

Good luck with it, whichever way you go.

Kirk

[faux fiddy]

I know this is "a job for the pros" but for nearly 3 grand to do the hot piping alone, I could get real good at sweating pipes together.

Sounds like a plan..but be very careful and have an extra person around as fire watch. Unless of course you just want to collect insurance and move on to another place.

[Bob Wessner]

Fmc, sweating copper isn't difficult. Replumbing our place was my first time. Like you're going to, practice some. I actually have come enjoy it. Recently relocated our laundry and did some more. Occasionally I still produce a not so pretty joint, but no leakers and I guess that's what matters.. at least that's what I tell myself. 

[MCRider]

GENERALLY, homeowners insurance would not be expected to pay for a mechanical failure. For example, your insiurance won't buy you a new furnace when it wears out. Or new faucets, or a new water heater when it quits working.  If they pay for worn out plumbing I'd say you got a gift.

But it could probably pay for the damage caused by the failure assuming it was unexpected.

[Don R]

Mc Rider got the insurance deal correct.
 There are 3 grades of copper for plumbing, M is the thinnest and is available only in rigid, L is thicker and comes in soft in a roll or rigid, K is the heaviest and also comes rolled or rigid. There are other grades for medical gas and HVAC but you usually won't see them. Plumbing copper is sized by ID, other types by OD which can lead to confusion.
 If you go to the attic be very careful to remove all insulation under the pipes and let the heat from the house keep them warm. Insulate heavily over the pipes. No amount of insulation will keep them from freezing forever, the pipes must be in the warm zone close to the living space.

[Don R]

For the sweating copper, I like scotchbrite for the tube and a wire fitting brush for the fittings. apply just enough flux to coat both the fitting and tubing, if you over do it flux will continue to boil out when you should be done. carefully heat it until the solder flows into the joint from the top, if it is dry, clean, fluxed and the temp is correct the solder will suck into the joint. Don't overheat, it will anneal the copper and the solder will run back out.
 On a repair of existing pipe, I like to heat from the bottom and touch the solder there to check the temp. if there is water in the pipe the bottom won't take solder. If there is water and you solder the top you can't take it apart to get rid of the water.
 Sometimes if you have a small amount of water in the line you can just elevate the joint you are soldering so the water runs away from the joint.

[Bob Wessner]

if there is water in the pipe the bottom won't take solder. If there is water and you solder the top you can't take it apart to get rid of the water.

Good point to raise. Our home is 70 years old and I found out not a single valve shuts off completely any longer. They shut off enough for most any repair/replacement except sweating joints. A tiny amount of 'standing' water at the joint is no problem, heating will evaporate it. If there is any flow, however small, the joint, as pointed out, will not sweat properly and leak. I found a couple of ways around this, given the condition of our valves. On the hot water side, you can shut off your hot water heater, then shut off water to the heater, and drain a few gallons from the tank. This acts as a buffer for any in-flow on the hot side. For the cold water, I had a bit more of a challenge. I worked backwards with each valve only to find that all of them had some seepage even when completely closed. I ultimately had to close the valve on the street side of the meter, then remove the valve from the house side and just let an seepage come out into a shallow plastic tub. This removed all pressure from the cold side of the system. Your valves might be functioning better since it is newer construction. Then again, maybe not. I have noticed a marked decline in the quality of many construction materials, valves included, in recent years. Best thing would be to test just how well all your valves hold and save yourself some time and aggravation and time.

One other thing I discovered the hard way. Before you turn the water back on after doing your work, go around the house and remove all the aerators from your faucets.  Your work is bound to dislodge deposits in the pipes and these will end up clogging the aerators. Just let the water flow for a bit after removing them to flush the material out.

[MCRider]

A trick for a wet joint that won't dry out. Stuff a piece of bread in it. That will soak up the water long enough to make the solder joint. Then it just dissolves in the pipe.

I think they even make a material in the pumbing supply area to do this, but I use bread.

Google it.

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/plumbingpipessolder

[Bob Wessner]

I was told about this trick, never tried it though. I was going to need more time given the repairs I was making. Makes sense it would work for a quick joint though. Might want to remove the aerators to flush that out too. 

[BeSeeingYou]

Bob
Some valves have a small cap on one side that can be removed to allow the leakage a way out.  I am also finding that even new valves often don't seal 100%.  More Chinese made crap.  Ball valves seem to be a bit more reliable but cost more.  The gelatin eggs work fine too but it's often the bread that's in easy reach.
  Also the problem of low spots in the piping that won't drain.  I always try to lay out my pipes so everything drains to the lowest point.

[fmctm1sw]

Alright, no help from the city archieve guy.  That eliminates any chance of finding the blueprints.   While brainstorming last night, I realized that the MBR shower lines are tee'd off from the main lines before the main lines drop under the slab.  The leak detection guy already cut the drywall out of that area of my wall.  I can cut and cap the hot line to the house and maintain the run to the shower.  Assuming it works, I'll have a normal shower with no impact on the rest of the house.  there's nothing to lose because if it leaks, there's no loss since I still have the garden hose I can leave connected to the water heater.  Dragging that hose around the house is kind of a PITA though.  I don't know why I didn't think about this before.  Proposed plan pictured...

[fmctm1sw]

Success!  Just for point of reference, here was plan B.

[fmctm1sw]

I cut out a hunk and capped it.  I redid it after I didn't think the first sweat was right.  When I popped the cap off though, the whole inside appeared to be soldered.  It may well have been fine.  Finished up and turned on the water, no leaks!  Looked at the water meter:  Rock steady.  Now I have a functioning shower.   Note to self, go get fire blocking cloth 

[BeSeeingYou]

The soldering on the rest of the pipe (original work) looks sloppy and unprofessional to me and I am not surprised at the problems you are having.  When you start putting it back together get a de-burring tool if you don't have one yet.  Cheap little device that runs a small blade around the inside of the pipe and takes the bur off that forms from cutting.  Keeps turbulence and cavitation from happening inside the pipe. 

[Don R]

De-burring is a good idea, bread does work you can get a compression ball valve too, install it where needed to stop the flow. I've used a shop vac hooked to a smaller tube. Push the small tube in past the solder joint on the new valve  and suck the water past the solder joint. Remove and close the valve. Sometimes you can take the meter loose and let it leak out there.
 We asked for bread once at a hotel job and the lady gave us a roast beef sandwich, thought we were hungry. Thanks, now can I have a couple pieces of bread?

[Don R]

There are electronic locators that you hook a wire to the pipe and it sends a signal that a reciever can locate. There is also a sonic tool that hooks to the pipes. You measure the vloume of the sound of the leak in 3 locations, then calculate where the leak is. Works well. Sometimes it's a rock that rubbed a hole in the pipe in one spot or something like that, sometimes the pipe is just shot.
 My theory is sometimes they put chloride in the concrete mix when they are in a hurry or it's cold out. I think the chloride causes corrosion to the copper.

[Don R]

A friend built a house in a subdivision between two large pipelines. The pipelines cause an electrical current in the soil that ate his copper in three months. All the neighbors were shocked the plumber didn't know about it. No houses there have any copper left under the slab.