Author Topic: Rocker Shaft Trouble  (Read 18667 times)

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Offline RSchaefer

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2012, 11:01:34 AM »
So I am wondering - I was going to take like .005 off the cylinders and .010 off the head in order to get everything flat and pickup a little compression.  With just this little bit of milling, would I need to worry about countersinking any of the dowel holes?
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Offline burmashave

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2012, 11:57:32 AM »
As much as I agree with what is being said in terms of politeness etc.. too many of the responses here have been inflammatory (popcorn references for a start.. as if this persons trouble/misdirection is entertainment).

These responses will only make the poster more defensive and less likely to listen to the otherwise Great advice given by a few of the other members such as "Terry in Australia"

...many of us have been there before, follow someones advice and something goes very wrong... in our rash anger we make a few irrational snap judgements,  ...common guys and girls were better then this. Lets keep this productive.

In defense of my earlier post, I would like to say that I was merely following Groover's instructions to the letter by rereading his first post. As a consequence, my anger may have caused me to judge too quickly. I was really angry at the state of civility, rather than being angry at anyone in particular, and so, I'm not seeking forgiveness from anyone. On the other hand, I may seek out Hondaman for absolution.

edit: fixed typo
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 05:53:37 PM by burmashave »
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2012, 02:10:45 PM »
I have absolutely NO interest in being productive when someone comes in with 7 posts, let me repeat that 7 POSTS, and starts railing one of the most knowledgable guys here about something he obviosly knows nothing about.  There are ways to go about things, and groover just blew the #$%*ing pooch on that one. 

Notice Hondaman hasn't responded?  I see nothing wrong with that.  Groover's public shame blame game is not worty of a response from Hondaman.

Ya, I'm an #$%*, I know. :P

Isn't that type of stuff and its responses, one of the reasons you left here last time.?  Mark is big enough to speak for himself and doesn't need a bunch of smart arses doing it for him, i know for sure thats not the way he would deal with anything here....  We all make mistakes..... Mark may not have seen this thread and i am sure he wouldn't post in it because of all the unrelated rubbish anyway....
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman (VERY HAPPY WITH HONDAMAN!!)
« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2012, 02:31:49 PM »
Well, goes to show you how much respect everyone has for Hondaman as do I.  I am rebuilding my '75F, bought Hondaman's book and am basically doing nearly everything he has suggested in his book, the low cost HP upgrades, not the high cost upgrades.

I countersunk the oil pickup holes on the towers and drilled out the additional Honda marked holes as well.  I am going to leave out the 5mm.

The most obvious issue with Groovers situation is the lack of lubrication.  The only other things that came to my mind as I thought about how this could have happened was the possibility that the cam tower pins may have gotten mixed up and not put back in the same tower they came from.  So competing wear patterns caused the friction.  Also Hondaman goes into great detail regarding the torquing process for the 6mm bolts and the possible need for lock-tight should binding of the shaft occur before the torque #'s are hit.

Anyway for me the dialog is good as it tells me how careful I need to be as I put this thing back together.  I can't image how I would feel if what happened to Groovers, happened to me after all the work it takes to get back into the engine of one of these things.
+1..you're a Positive Dude  ;) and a valuable member.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2012, 02:34:37 PM »
So I am wondering - I was going to take like .005 off the cylinders and .010 off the head in order to get everything flat and pickup a little compression.  With just this little bit of milling, would I need to worry about countersinking any of the dowel holes?
[/b] No
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2012, 03:50:35 PM »
Wow...I just found this, and am humbled, honored, and even a little embarrassed by everyone's support.  :)
Thanks to you all!

And, I've made mistakes before, but this isn't one of them...

To the original problem:
Groover: there's only one thing I know of that can cause the wasp-waist to get grooved like that: one or more rockers had to be seized (or dragging) on the shaft enough to force it sideways into the bolt body, and there would be a corresponding witness mark on the bolt to confirm it. There will also be witness marks where the rockers have done this grab.

To cause this rocker seizure, all that must happen is a lack of oil pressure in the rocker's oil passages. This can be caused by the following things, some of which have already been mentioned above:
1. One or more missing O-rings underneath the cam bearings. There are 4 of them, and in the post-1970 engines (where the 5mm bolts are found) they are all 6x2mm in non-Honda size, or 5.9x1.9mm in Honda's parts. If one is missing on either cam bearing, it takes less than 1 minute to finish off the cam bearings, 2 to wipe out rockers, and less than 5 to rip up the cam.
2. Sealant from the cylinder base gasket area or the head gasket (if used in the 2 inner oil port areas) blocking the .033" oil strainer holes in the oil jets. Both the pre-1971 and post-1970 engines used these strainer holes to protect the .035" oil jet hole from being plugged: in the early ones there are 12 such strainer holes, the later ones have 7. Silicone sealant and Permatex-like sealants can do this to you, so I recommend against using them (in my book).
3. The above-mentioned mis-set locating dowels issue with the cam bearings.
4. No oil pressure, from a pump that has the dreaded air bubble in it. If the engine sat upside-down for more than a couple of hours with the oil ports open on the side of the engine, this often happens. The only way I know of to remove it is to set the pump in about 2" of oil and spin the gear back and forth until it geysers oil out the feed port, where the check valve has to be pushed open to let the oil pass. For this reason, startup ALWAYS require an oil pressure check at cranking speed before letting the engine run.

I'm sorry you've had this mishap, but I think with a little sleuthing you will figure out what went wrong. It's not like I haven't done it, but at least it was many (too many?) moons ago when I did it myself, else I would not have known how it can happen.

Other questions:
1. Is your cam stock? Cams with lift of more than 8mm require use of the 5mm bolts, which is noted in the book. This is for those days when pistons and valve meet after the missed shift, or when the valve springs bind from not being properly shimmed at setup.
2. What is the valve lash setting(s)?
3. Is the cam timing within 8 degrees of stock TDC reference? If it is more than 20 degrees off, the pistons and valves can meet at pretty low RPM, which will make lots of noise.
4. Screeching sounds indicate loss of lube somewhere (in bearings, perhaps?), or something like chains dragging against metal. See if you can locate those witness marks? If the engine was run for only a few minutes and metal powder showed up in the pan that fast, it could be coming from a chain dragging something, or from the rod bearings, even crank bearings, if no oil PSI showed up. For filings from a damaged rocker shaft to show up, it would also be in the oil return passages from the head, down the cylinder drains, and would be all around in the cam area. If it is just in the bottom, it can be from the cam or primary chains, or the crankshaft.

So, take a look around, maybe we can help you find it?
By way of reference: my 750 has 140,000+ miles and 40+ years on it, without the 5mm bolts. It still has the OEM rocker shafts, and they are worn less than 0.0004" in the worst spots, with no shiny spots in the wasp-waist areas. This is, at best, an interesting mystery?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 04:10:40 PM by HondaMan »
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Offline heffay

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2012, 04:55:38 PM »
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« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 06:21:30 AM by heffay »
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bollingball

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2012, 04:55:40 PM »
Can someone tell me what (wasp-waist) means.

                                        Ken

Offline Gordon

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2012, 05:06:11 PM »
Can someone tell me what (wasp-waist) means.

                                        Ken





 ;)

bollingball

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2012, 05:21:25 PM »
Hey Gordon I did see that when looking it up. But nothing in reference to machinery :o

                                        Ken

Offline MCRider

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2012, 05:26:01 PM »
Hey Gordon I did see that when looking it up. But nothing in reference to machinery :o

                                        Ken
The pinched in part of the rocker shaft.
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Offline burmashave

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2012, 06:26:24 PM »
...Mark is big enough to speak for himself and doesn't need a bunch of smart arses doing it for him, i know for sure thats not the way he would deal with anything here....  We all make mistakes..... Mark may not have seen this thread and i am sure he wouldn't post in it because of all the unrelated rubbish anyway....

Whether or not Mark -- or anyone else for that matter -- can stand up for himself has nothing to do with an expectation for a basic level of respect. On the other hand, I may well be a smart arse, so what do I know? I do know that I make lots and lots of mistakes. No, wait a minute. That's not exactly true. I make lots and lots and lots of mistakes; however, I do my level best to own up to them.
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bollingball

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2012, 06:40:28 PM »
Whether or not Mark -- or anyone else for that matter -- can stand up for himself has nothing to do with an expectation for a basic level of respect. On the other hand, I may well be a smart arse, so what do I know? I do know that I make lots and lots of mistakes. No, wait a minute. That's not exactly true. I make lots and lots and lots of mistakes; however, I do my level best to own up to them.

                                               Well said

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2012, 08:13:05 PM »
Can someone tell me what (wasp-waist) means.

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Offline dave500

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #89 on: March 04, 2012, 09:40:25 PM »
aliens invade paris?

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #90 on: March 04, 2012, 10:00:38 PM »
Quote
Whether or not Mark -- or anyone else for that matter -- can stand up for himself has nothing to do with an expectation for a basic level of respect. On the other hand, I may well be a smart arse, so what do I know? I do know that I make lots and lots of mistakes. No, wait a minute. That's not exactly true. I make lots and lots and lots of mistakes; however, I do my level best to own up to them.

Some of you blokes are so full of yourselves.... :o  It sounds like the OP is not the most schooled member as far as these bikes go and being the only modification he made, he suspected it may have been the problem. The post was addressed to Mark, i see no disrespect and i am sure Mark didn't either, i just read his detailed reply and it was typically useful and polite, you have read far too much into it without knowing anything about the OP, disrespect my arse, the way i see it is you have just disrespected the OP, tell us all what the difference is please, disrespect is disrespect, doesn't matter who its aimed at.... ::)  People in glass houses maybe....
If i were the op i would come back with all  guns blazing, how dare you demand respect whilst in the process of disrespecting someone you don't know and for something thats clearly none of your business.....

I'm outa here..... :o
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2012, 10:30:27 PM »
Can someone tell me what (wasp-waist) means.

                                        Ken





 ;)

Ow!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline burmashave

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #92 on: March 04, 2012, 11:15:34 PM »
Some of you blokes are so full of yourselves.... :o  It sounds like the OP is not the most schooled member as far as these bikes go and being the only modification he made, he suspected it may have been the problem. The post was addressed to Mark, i see no disrespect and i am sure Mark didn't either, i just read his detailed reply and it was typically useful and polite, you have read far too much into it without knowing anything about the OP, disrespect my arse, the way i see it is you have just disrespected the OP, tell us all what the difference is please, disrespect is disrespect, doesn't matter who its aimed at.... ::)  People in glass houses maybe....
If i were the op i would come back with all  guns blazing, how dare you demand respect whilst in the process of disrespecting someone you don't know and for something thats clearly none of your business.....

I'm outa here..... :o

Huh? Huh? And Huh? I must be in a different thread somewhere. Perhaps on that universe where Spock has a goatee.
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Offline ekpent

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #93 on: March 05, 2012, 05:10:15 AM »
I hope the OP feels free to come on back with more technical details as Hondaman has not been offended and has graciously offered his help as have some others to try and help solve the problem so he can get his bike back up and enjoy his ride after his sizeable investment he has made so far. Pistons,cams,machining etc. don't come cheap and we all want our fellow enthusiasts to succeed hopefully.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 06:45:46 AM by ekpent »

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #94 on: March 05, 2012, 06:02:49 AM »
I hope the OP feels free to come on back with more technical details as Hondaman has not been offended and has graciously offered his help as have some others to try and help solve the problem so he can get his bike back up and enjoy his ride after his sizeable investment he has made so far. Pistons,cams,machining etc. don't come cheap and we all want are fellow enthusiasts to succeed hopefully.
+ 1  :)
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Offline heffay

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #95 on: March 05, 2012, 07:10:57 AM »
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« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 06:22:17 AM by heffay »
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #96 on: March 05, 2012, 09:03:48 AM »

And just because Hondaman handled himself with respect and dignity, does not mean he wasn't offended.

 And please, stop talking as if you know any better what Hondaman wants or thinks. 

sorry Retro...I should have left you to grab this low hanging fruit ...but the prankster in me couldn't resist. ;D

Maybe we should all take a cue from Hondaman.  If he showed no sign of offense in his response  to the OP's poor way of handling the issue in the original post  why would anyone else?  Let it go.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 09:45:14 AM by srust58 »

Offline burmashave

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #97 on: March 05, 2012, 10:26:16 AM »
And just because Hondaman handled himself with respect and dignity, does not mean he wasn't offended.
And please, stop talking as if you know any better what Hondaman wants or thinks. 

sorry Retro...I should have left you to grab this low hanging fruit ...but the prankster in me couldn't resist. ;D

Maybe we should all take a cue from Hondaman.  If he showed no sign of offense in his response  to the OP's poor way of handling the issue in the original post  why would anyone else?  Let it go.

If I understand the connection you are making, it should be clear to a one-eyed bat that if we don't know what a person is thinking, then we shouldn't speak as if we do. This was Heffay's statement as quoted. However, I may completely have missed your point.

The criteria offered by some for defense of a fellow member is whether that member is offended, in addition to whether that member can stick up for him or herself. Therefore, I can only assume that many members would not stick up for a fellow member unless that member explicitly stated that he or she were offended or hurt -- regardless of the severity of the slight to the member or community at large.

That said, watch this cool move: Now that I've gotten in my last thoughts on the subject, I'll attempt to close the discussion by instructing everyone else to "let it go." Just for fun, I'll leave an open question, and I'll take a parting shot. That way my gratuitous jab will either be the last comment on the subject, or the person receiving the shot -- if he responds -- will seem to be the one who cannot let go. But I only do this because I want people to let it go.

Now, let it go. People who don't let it go are pot-stirrers. You can have no reason to disagree with me.
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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #98 on: March 05, 2012, 10:34:27 AM »
I thought this was going to become a hate thread? What happend? lol Well so much for that popcorn.
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Offline heffay

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Re: Not Happy Hondaman
« Reply #99 on: March 05, 2012, 11:37:10 AM »
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« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 06:22:59 AM by heffay »
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
Past Rides: '72 tc125, '94 cbr600f2, '76 rd400, '89 ex500, '93 KTM-125exc, '92 zx7r, '93 Banshee, '83 ATC250R, 77/75 cb400f