Author Topic: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1  (Read 16209 times)

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Offline mycb750k6

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Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« on: March 15, 2012, 08:42:09 AM »
The many write-ups and tutorials on bench syncing say that you should start with two threads showing at the top of the adjuster nut on the top of one of  the carbs and use a small drill or wire to make all the slider openings match or have the same opening at the slider bottom. BUT not knowing the history of these carbs or if they were even originally on the same rack, I find that using the wire/drill bit to set the slider opening could result in maybe three to four threads showing at the top.  So which is the correct starting point, the threads at the top or the slider opening? And why is there that much thread showing  in the first place? Also this may result in relatively low sync readings, like 16-18 cmHG rather than 20-22 cmHG. I know that consistency across  cmHG readings is more important than actual values but there must be limits. So what's the significance of high or low  cmHG  readings?  Also, what effect does engine warm up or engine temp have upon synchronization if any? (my suspicion is that what I think is a good running engine may not necessarily be the case )

Offline Shane72

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2012, 11:28:49 AM »
Good question,

This is one of those situations where the parts at hand will determine the right course of action, and reference materials may be a very good starting point--but not the only answer.

Last time I bench-synched a set of cb750 carbs I paid little attention to the amount of threads showing, reasoning that the slides don't know how long they are.  They only respond to where they are in relation to each other.

That particular set had one slide that was fixed, so it was fairly easy to adjust the others to it.  there was enough threaded room to get the job done well, but I'm sure that the amount of available thread was different between carbs in the end.

Good luck,

Shane
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Offline phil71

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2012, 11:51:57 AM »
i just use a small allen wrench and let it act as a feeler gauge, till it slips under each slide with the exact same amount of drag.. Last time I did this, the proper sync that followed showed only the absolute tiniest variation on just 1 cylinder.
The thing is, all of it is arbitrary.. Bench sync is a good idea, but if you have an engine with hi-miles and varied cylinder pressures, the final balance may result in slides that aren't at the same height at all.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2012, 12:55:48 PM »
I never gave the "threads showing" point any credence.  Put that wherever you want it on whatever carb you wish to select as master, (provided #2 has an adjustment feature).

While backing off the main idle knob, watch the slide travel among carbs, the first slide that fully seats to the bottom of the bore is designated as master (assuming #2 is also adjustable in the set, if not, #2 is the master, by design).

Lock down the "master's" carb adjuster, as you won't touch it again during any sync procedure.

For bench sync the task now is to mechanically align all the other slides to be in the same relative position inside their carb bores as the master carb.

I prefer a light source as the measuring gauge and then adjusting the other carbs to also seat at the bottom of their respective bores, closing off the light. 
But, if you prefer the visceral feel of poking something into a hole, then select something in the 1/8 diameter range, and turn the idle knob to open the master's slide so the measuring tool just fits between slide and bore.

Now adjust each of the other carbs slide height adjusters, so that your test tool just fits into the slide openings of the other non-master carbs.

That's it.  They are bench synced.  And the carbs will deliver equally if in good condition, clean, etc. and if the cylinder draw is equal among the 4 cylinders sucking on them.

But, since perfection is not in the same realm as us mere mortals or machines, the 4 cylinders will NOT suck equally among them.  So, you still have to vacuum balance the carbs (never touching the master carb adjuster) so the cylinders draw equal charges of mixture into them.

Quote
Also this may result in relatively low sync readings, like 16-18 cmHG rather than 20-22 cmHG.
This is what's known as a red herring in the  vacuum syncronizing world.

The peak vacuum strength sourced by the engine is determined by mechanical factors of the engine itself.  The slides only control how fast that pressure can be equalized from the atmospheric source (air intake).  The pressure test device (vacuum gauge is not placed at the engine's intake valve but along the inlet duct path near the carb.  On and individual basis, you can artificially raise or lower the equalization rate by adjusting an individual carb slide height.  (This is like opening your mouth wider to suck in more air easily, close your mouth to a smaller opening and your cheeks will hollow (or bulge), causing reduced (or raised) pressure inside your mouth, closer to what your lungs are producing, pressure wise).

So, for vacuum sync purposes, the vacuum reading is-what-it-is for what the engine can produce, and that they are equal among the four is the goal.  If you want the average cumulative reading among the cylinders to change, you will need to change bore, stroke, cam timing/valve timing.  Or, simply block the single air intake providing equalization pressure to the engine's 4 cylinders.  So, don't expect "book" vacuum pressures, if you have a modified the induction path away from stock.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline mycb750k6

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2012, 03:09:33 PM »
Thanks TT. I never gave the "master" much attention in the past but have read you should start with #2 for some reason as you mentioned. And what I guess I missed was leaving the master alone during syncing or locking it down. I'd always picked one that was between the highs and lows and adjusted the others to that one.


I'll play with finding the master on the bench using your method rather than arbitrarily picking the average to adjust to.


And finally, having 18cmHG is "bad" compared to 28cmHG which is "good" or is that nonsense? Just like low compression is "bad". The recommended 20-2cmHG2 must have come from somewhere.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2012, 04:21:19 PM »
Thought I explained the vacuum level thing in the previous post.

Best know and verify the source of your stated specification before committing to it.  I don't know where you are getting your numbers from.
Do you have the stock induction set up and stock air filter, etc.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline mycb750k6

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2012, 04:57:15 PM »
Clymer manual for CB750s 69-78. Not bad really and has more hard values than most general references. Clymer gets a bad rap but I'm not sure why. Specifies 20cmHG and using the lowest value as the "master"

Offline phil71

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2012, 05:30:28 PM »
forget the mercury #s. You can't verify the calibration of your gauges, and you can't make the motor create more vacuum .. if your valve lash is in spec, just make the gauges show the same number and call it a day.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2012, 05:36:44 PM »
I was under the impression #2 on the 750 was not adjustable. In any event use that one as a reference. I would not give too much credence to your vacuum readings. Did you calibrate your gauges so they all read the same on one cylinder? Also,you should synch with the engine fully warm.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2012, 05:46:47 PM »
I was under the impression #2 on the 750 was not adjustable.

Earlier carbs are all adjustable. 

Offline mycb750k6

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2012, 05:49:18 PM »
I have a  Morgan Carbtune . You don't calibrate it. It has sliding stainless tubes. Anyway I don't know how you would calibrate it if it was off. I'm pretty sure #2 is adjustable. Why it's been proclaimed the master I don't get. Forgive me but tell me again why it's important to sync with a warm engine if you don't mind.

Offline Gordon

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2012, 05:59:07 PM »
You synchronize the carbs when the engine is warm because valve and piston ring tolerances change from cold to hot, as well as the air/fuel mixture.  These things will all affect the efficiency of each cylinder.  You want each cylinder pulling in the same amount of air with the engine in the state it will be in at it's normal operating temperature, not necessarily when it's first started up cold.   

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2012, 06:08:15 PM »
Clymer manual for CB750s 69-78. Not bad really and has more hard values than most general references. Clymer gets a bad rap but I'm not sure why.
Because... it gives bad or misleading information among the "good bits" they copied from the Honda manual, and don't make corrections in subsequent publications.

Specifies 20cmHG and using the lowest value as the "master"
And that is wrong, imo.  The lowest value will be the carb with the highest slide.  In carb sets that have all the slides adjustable, there is risk of eventually making ALL the slides too high and this will prevent the idle knob from allowing the slides to close down enough to achieve book value idle speed.

Lastly, I'm sure the "spec" they give applies to the stock induction and air filter.
...And, you still haven't mentioned if that is what you have.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2012, 06:41:17 PM »
Just to compare the Clymer manual to the genuine Honda shop manual w/ supplements, published in 1977 ...

The Honda shop manual (K1-K4 supplement) states that carb synchronization is performed:

When the oil temp is between 140 to 157 degrees.

With the engine idle speed set to 900 - 1,000 RPM

The vacuum gages should indicate uniformly (within 3.0 cmHg) between 16 to 24 cmHg. 


Offline mycb750k6

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2012, 07:57:08 AM »
OK I got it finally, thanks. All good info and help and I appreciate it.
And my bikes are stock, bone stock including exhaust and carbs ( except one but I'm not working on that one just now).


One more question and I'll stop. Once I have all carbs the same at idle, say 22cmHG for example, when I twist the throttle and make all four tubes jump to the top of the carbtune, they don't all climb to the same max on the scale. Sometimes they are off by 2-4cmHG. Does that matter? I would think you would want them all to behave the same over the entire range of throttle response, no? I don't see anything that says check the consistency across different rmps. Maybe it's there and I missed it.

Offline Jeff.Saunders

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2012, 08:12:08 AM »
I bench sync all my carbs before they go on the bike.  I use a partially unravelled paperclip - it really doesn't matter what you use - something round and very smooth is a better choice.

I only use sync tools to validate the slide settings - I never make any appreciable changes to slide sync with vacuum gauges or mercury stix.  I want to make sure the needles rise consistently in the needle jet to give good mid-range throttle response.  I do use the gauges to help with the pilot screws - but again, I don't deviate much from the initial turns out - probably only plus/minus 1/8 turn on the screw.

Vacuum tools on old carbs can give very misleading readings.  The wear and tear is rarely consistent across all 4 carbs. 

As mentioned by others, make sure your valve lash is set consistently across all cylinders.  Also, make sure the igntion timing is correct on both sets of points (or both sides of your electronic ignition).   Either of these will skew your vacuum readings.

It's also important to get the engine up to full operating temperature before attempting to sync the carbs.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2012, 08:50:26 AM »
Jeff, I guess I wasted my money buying guages from you. JK  ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Jeff.Saunders

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2012, 10:10:05 AM »
I do use my gauges, but I don't get hung up on perfection when setting idle.

Once you've done the bench sync, you can still be off a small amount between each carb - so if I do adjust the slide sync, it's just a VERY small amount (1/16th of a turn is about the most I will adjust).  What I don't do is crank the adjuster 1/2 a turn or more - because when you do this, there is a very visiable difference between the slide heights.  The best way to understand this - if you sync exclusively with the vacuum gauges and pull the carbs off the bike, you don't want to see the slides staggered at different heights.  If you do, it helps illustrate the wear and tear issue with carbs performing differently. 

The vacuum gauges can be a useful diagnostic tool.  If I have a bike running rough it will often show other issues than carbs - like poor compression on a cylinder, or a vacuum leak.

Offline Gordon

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Re: Bench syncing - can't have it both ways - CB750 K1
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2012, 02:24:14 PM »
One more question and I'll stop. Once I have all carbs the same at idle, say 22cmHG for example, when I twist the throttle and make all four tubes jump to the top of the carbtune, they don't all climb to the same max on the scale. Sometimes they are off by 2-4cmHG. Does that matter? I would think you would want them all to behave the same over the entire range of throttle response, no? I don't see anything that says check the consistency across different rmps. Maybe it's there and I missed it.

Technically it would be ideal for all cylinders to be pulling identical vacuum throughout the full rpm range, but it's most important at low revs.  At high speed there's plenty of rotational inertia to keep it spinning smoothly even with slight differences between the cylinders, but at low speed a small difference will cause the cylinders to fight against each other by trying to push the crankshaft at different speeds.  That's why you get a lot of clutch basket rattle at idle when the carbs are out of balance.