Topic: tubeless tire with a tube?

[Don R]

My bike shop is limited on what tires I can get because they are wary of mounting a tubeless tire with a tube in it.  Opinions?

[ekpent]

I think your OK Don to mount most tubeless with a tube. Did they give a reason or just fearing a liability issue ?

[TwoTired]

If you have the original type spoke rims.  You have little choice but to use a tube (and a rim strip).
You can safely use a tube in a tubeless tire. But, you must assume the tire loses one step in speed rating.

If your shop doesn't know this, I'd seriously consider finding another shop, as another finesse point on mounting a tubeless tire on a tubeless rim is wrestling the bead into proper seated position about the circumference on both sides.
It's automatic, no brainer, seating with a tubeless tire on tubeless rims.  But, not so with a tube type rim.  The risk of improper seating, translates to tread center wander during rotation.  This can make the bike "wiggle" at certain speeds.

I would urge you not to simply accept only the tires they have stocked locally.  But, wait for properly sized tires to come in on special order.  Old bikes have special needs in certain areas.  And, popular or "vanilla" tires for modern bikes aren't always the best fit.

Cheers,

[Don R]

They can order most any tire available and didn't try to sell me stock. The parts lady was told by her tire supplier that a tubeless tire will build heat when fitted with a tube. Most of the bikes they see have tubeless tires these days but they (owners) did work in a Honda shop before they opened their own independent shop. Charlie still has his bought new sandcast 750 and remembers hauling truckloads of stock 750 exhausts to the scrap yard after they ran out of storage space. She thought maybe Spitfires but wanted me to make the decision.

[Shane72]

Hey Don,

The set I just mounted Friday (Shinko Tourmasters) are tubeless tires and they actually say that a tube should be fitted if mounted on a tube-type rim.

While I don't believe there is any issue in the first place, I did find it interesting that the tubeless tire actually had instructions molded into them for using a tube in it on certain rims.

While under some extreme measures and scrutiny there may be some tiny changes, I just don't believe that a tire knows whether or not it has a tube in it at all.  The pressures are too great to allow any real movement (friction/heat) between the layers anyway.  Admittedly, I could be wrong.

Yes, the rims are different, but the main thing is that traditional tube-type rims simply aren't airtight without a tube.  In fact, some tubeless rims (particularly from the '80's for some reason) that I've encountered have had tubes installed.  I have no idea why, since they hold air fine when the valve stem is changed (back?) to a tubeless style.  No plug or patch on the old tire either...

All the best,

Shane

[trueblue]

I have tubes in my tubeless tyres on my 650, I origionally had a tube in the front only, there was a slight mark on the bead so I put a tube in it, you could feel a definate difference in temperature between front and rear, especially after a good blast in the twisties.  A few weeks ago the bead on the rear tyre started to leak slightly so I put a tube in it and since then the bike feels grippier in the corners and the tyres feel about the same temperature front to rear after a hard ride, my tyres are Michellin Pilot activ's.

[Scott S]

 I recently had tires mounted to a set of Lester's. After reading a few threads on here that suggested running tubes with Lester rims, that's what I did.

 My shop did call me and ask why I was running tubes in tubeless tires on tubeless rims. I told him that's how guys are doing it with these old wheels and asked if it would hurt anything. His reply: "Not a thing.....just checking".

[ofreen]

I just don't believe that a tire knows whether or not it has a tube in it at all.  The pressures are too great to allow any real movement (friction/heat) between the layers anyway.  Admittedly, I could be wrong.

In this case you are.  Examination of a tube after it has been inside a tire for 15 or 16 thousand miles will show a considerable amount of wear on the surface of the tube.  There is a fair amount of "squirm" between tire and tube.  This generates heat, which is the basis of TT's statement about going down a speed rating when installing a tube in a tubeless tire.

[Shane72]

I just don't believe that a tire knows whether or not it has a tube in it at all.  The pressures are too great to allow any real movement (friction/heat) between the layers anyway.  Admittedly, I could be wrong.

In this case you are.  Examination of a tube after it has been inside a tire for 15 or 16 thousand miles will show a considerable amount of wear on the surface of the tube.  There is a fair amount of "squirm" between tire and tube.  This generates heat, which is the basis of TT's statement about going down a speed rating when installing a tube in a tubeless tire.

Fair enough,

That's what I was considering to be within what I characterized as tiny changes under extreme measures and scrutiny higher in the post.  Perhaps "tiny changes" suggests too small a scope?

Probably not enough to matter in the real world with reasonable use and safety considerations though.  Certainly not enough to matter as it relates to the OP's question.

Shane

[ofreen]

Probably not enough to matter in the real world with reasonable use and safety considerations though.  Certainly not enough to matter as it relates to the OP's question.

I was commenting on your remark about what "a tire knows", not whether it is OK to run a tube inside a tubeless tire (which it is).  And no criticism of your comment was intended, just making an observation.  I've noticed something interesting in my use of Metzeler's ME88 on the rear of my 750.  I've gone through at least 6 of there tires over the years.  It is a great tire.  I also know people that have run the same tire on older Gold Wings.  Without exception, they got better life than I have, even though the tires were run on a heavier bike.  The difference was that they were running them tubeless and I am running tubes.  I was very familiar with these bikes (I worked on them, including tire replacement).  We ran the same tire pressures, around 40 PSI cold.  The heat buildup is enough higher with tubes to have a significant effect on tread wear.  The tire "knows." 

[Shane72]

Thanks Greg,

I stand (more) informed.

All the best,

Shane

[Tanqueracer]

I've been running my Michelins on my stock '75SS rims for over a year now with no problems.

[70CB750]

Speaking of tires, I just can't find it again - fill cold tires, ride a mile and the pressure should rise 2psi???

The only number I am semi sure off is the 2psi, anybody knows the rest?

[ofreen]

A 10% increase in pressure is typical on a typical day on a typically loaded motorcycle ridden at typical speeds.

[trueblue]

Speaking of tires, I just can't find it again - fill cold tires, ride a mile and the pressure should rise 2psi???

The only number I am semi sure off is the 2psi, anybody knows the rest?

That was from Hondaman, it went something like, starting with a cold tyre, one that has been out of the sun and not ridden on for at least an hour, ride 10 miles and measure again, it should rise 2 psi, if it rises less than 2psi, lower tyre pressure 2psi, if it rises more than 2 psi, increase 2 psi then try again,

[70CB750]

Thank you, that's it, it was from Hondaman, you are right.