Author Topic: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?  (Read 11048 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« on: June 04, 2006, 05:15:19 AM »
Hey Guys...
After riding in the rain for hours on a trip home last weekend...and having two of the cyl. drop out, I decided it was time to try and replace the plug wires.
Turned out to be pretty easy actually...
I took some picts and will write up the procedure if anyone is interested.
ED

Offline clarkjh

  • Expert? If only.
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,385
  • Surely and Samson are now Co-habitating
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2006, 05:18:21 AM »
Bring it on, my wires are so stiff they will hardly bend and starting to crack.

James
SOHC/4 #3328
SOHC/4 Gallery: http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/clarkjh/
1974 CB550, 40000 Miles
1980 GL1100, 102789 KM - Back on the road after a complete engine rebuild. 
*** Why, oh why, is it always head gaskets with me?***

Offline puppytrax

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,059
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2006, 05:31:48 AM »
I took some picts and will write up the procedure if anyone is interested.

I am interested...please post...

Bring it on, my wires are so stiff they will hardly bend and starting to crack.

Could you post a pic of those old stiff cracked wires for Oldfart??? I don't think he believes me...  :'(
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

jsaab2748

  • Guest
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2006, 06:40:50 AM »
Hey Guys...
After riding in the rain for hours on a trip home last weekend...and having two of the cyl. drop out, I decided it was time to try and replace the plug wires.
Turned out to be pretty easy actually...
Quote
I took some picts and will write up the procedure if anyone is interested.
ED
              Yes, and especially if you were able to get at the wires where they connect inside
of the coil housing to make the connection, or was that possible(?)   thanks...

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2006, 06:41:10 AM »
Hey Guys...
I'll do a write up and if I can figure out how...will post picts..
My wires were actually in pretty good shape I think...probably just the end caps that were bad, but they were very stiff and almost 30 years old...so I went a head and did the whole job.
I'll try and put together the narrative today.
ED

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2006, 06:43:20 AM »
Hey JS...
I replaced the whole wire inside the coil...requires some surgery with a dremel tool.

jsaab2748

  • Guest
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2006, 06:55:28 AM »
Thank you sir! I have a spare set of 500  coils I can use as test guinea pigs. Wasn't sure what
it looked like inside the coils and didn't want to screw them up. We welcome your findings..

Offline clarkjh

  • Expert? If only.
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,385
  • Surely and Samson are now Co-habitating
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2006, 08:20:05 AM »
 puppytrax

I'll need to dig them out of a pile of boxes.  Everythings boxed at the moment so I don't loose anything.  I'm saving up for some parts that need replacing before I put the case back together.  Don't think I will get any riding this summer :'(

James
SOHC/4 #3328
SOHC/4 Gallery: http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/clarkjh/
1974 CB550, 40000 Miles
1980 GL1100, 102789 KM - Back on the road after a complete engine rebuild. 
*** Why, oh why, is it always head gaskets with me?***

Offline puppytrax

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,059
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2006, 08:41:41 AM »
I'll need to dig them out of a pile of boxes...

Don't worry about it then...

Quote
Don't think I will get any riding this summer :'(

I don't think I'll be riding this Summer either...probably not even this year...  :(
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline Noel

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2006, 10:04:25 AM »
I misread jsaab2748 to mean that he uses old 500 coils to test guinea pigs. :o

I'd like to hear the ht swap process too.
'73 CB500

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2006, 12:10:52 PM »
Hey guys...
I'm going to write the narrative in Word....will it let me paste here with the pictures???
Rode the bike some today and it really does run better...I was surprised at the difference...figured all I would gain was wet weather reliability.

Offline puppytrax

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,059
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2006, 12:37:15 PM »
Hey guys...
I'm going to write the narrative in Word....will it let me paste here with the pictures???

You're going to make it a downloadable link??? Should work. (no pun)   ::)
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline SteveD CB500F

  • Global Moderator
  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,553
  • Ride on the Steel Breeze...
    • TVAM
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2006, 01:20:59 PM »
You can write the narrative in Word and then cut/paste into the text box.  This is the way I do it when compiling a FAQ from various posts.

Or you can upload the Word document just like you do with pictures.

If you can post reasonably detailed instructions with pictures it would make a good FAQ as many people ask this question.
SOHC4 Member #2393
2015 Tiger 800 XRT
1971 CB500K0 (US Model)

huntman58

  • Guest
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2006, 02:58:33 PM »
Hey Guys...
After riding in the rain for hours on a trip home last weekend...and having two of the cyl. drop out, I decided it was time to try and replace the plug wires.
Turned out to be pretty easy actually...
Quote
I took some picts and will write up the procedure if anyone is interested.
ED
              Yes, and especially if you were able to get at the wires where they connect inside
of the coil housing to make the connection, or was that possible(?)   thanks...

 I would to also like to  know and see this. My own wires are old and stating to go south  ;). (note to self. do not use yellow wires and paint bike flat  black to be safe from yellow bike lover  ;D

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2006, 04:16:08 PM »
Ok guys...going to try and post this by pasting in the text and picts...
Hope the picts aren't too big...

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2006, 04:17:51 PM »
Ok Guys…
I wanted to replace the wires in my original coils and since they are wire core…I figured it would be worth a try. Seems to work well and isn’t that hard to do…
You need a dremel  tool with a cutoff blade, a soldering iron, snips, some epoxy glue, masking tape, a sharp knife  and a new set of wires.
My local parts house just ordered me a universal 4 cyl. Set. These have the plug boot already in place…at some point I may order a set of the original style plug ends…but I think that’s where most of my trouble was anyway. It would be easy enough to replace the ends whenever.
Here is the finished product…My old sleeves with the plug wire numbers were still good so I put them back on as well.

 

The first one was a bit of an experiment…after I found out how the were made it was easy.
Take the dremel tool and make a cut down each side of the wire…half the diameter of the wire down on each side…it will be a bit V shaped…you can see from these picts about where to stop cutting. When you get deep enough you will see some smoke from the rubber…
Do this carefully…the cutter will cut but also melts the plastic a bit..so you may have to go back and clean the cut a time or two. When you make the END cut across the wire…make sure not to go too deep and cut the center of the wire!!! The end of the original insulation stops about where these cuts are.


 

Once you make your cuts…pop the plastic wedge out and your old wire will be exposed…I took the snips and cut the wire off and left about ½ “
Then take a sharp knife and split the insulation and pull it out…this should leave about ½” of bare wire exposed. See above…
Take your soldering iron and “tin” this wire…try not to get it too hot.
Make sure and get “REAL” Solder…the lead free stuff is CRAP! It really doesn’t want to stick to this wire!!! Cut your new wire to the appropriate length…I added a little…the originals were sort of short. Skin about ½’ of the new wire and tin it also…place in the coil and put them side by side…then solder together.
I went ahead and filled the area where the solder joint was with epoxy to make sure it filled properly…let this set up…then clean up the coil with some solvent and get some masking tape.
Make a form shaped like the original coil with the tape and slowly pour in the epoxy to fill the form. Works best if you pour from one side and leave the other open for air to escape…it should fill all the way up and make a nice solid casing…you can see the epoxy through the tape…maybe even better some of the clear boxing tape…
 

It only took me about an hour or so to do all four wires… and I was very pleasantly surprised at what a difference it made…much nice throttle response down low and smoother Idle.
I’m still running non-resistor plugs…so maybe the boom boom guys will cuss me…
But I don’t really care!!! Next set of plugs I’ll get the resistor type.
I also filled the plug boots with dielectric grease…as the don’t fit really tight on the ITTY BITTY plugs we have!
Hope I made this explanation clear enough…if you have questions…let me know.



« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 08:40:20 AM by Glenn Stauffer »

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2006, 04:19:09 PM »
Looks like the picts didn't make it...
HMMMMMM
Re think this!

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2006, 04:46:27 PM »
maybe this will fit!

Offline Gordon

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,114
  • 750K1, 550K2
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2006, 05:13:28 PM »
You need to downsize the pictures to attach them to your post.  Most photo editing software also allows you to adjust the resolution.  If you set the resolution at 72 dpi you can usually upload an 800 x 600 picture, which just about fills the browser window of a 17" monitor. 

Offline puppytrax

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,059
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2006, 05:15:50 PM »
Sounds interesting...If I'm reading this right, you're cutting a v-shaped wedge out to expose the core wire, splicing/soldering the new wire in, and then epoxying the case closed again...is that right???

The embedded pics are a bit small...in that first pic, are the [sort-of] clear areas of the coil the new epoxy patches???

I'm pretty surprised that the wire was solderable...

Looks like a terrific job!!!  8)
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2006, 05:28:11 PM »
Yep...that's it...
Had to really dumb down the picts to get them to fit...only a 128 k avail.
the wire is just plated copper...solders fine...WITH REAL SOLDER!!!

Offline puppytrax

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,059
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2006, 05:45:19 PM »
the wire is just plated copper...solders fine...WITH REAL SOLDER!!!

Perhaps you could elaborate on that a bit...not 50/50...not 90/10...not acid-core...but [what?] solder...

In any event...looks like a great job...I'm racking my brain right now trying to think up a way to make the wire replaceable...   ::)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2006, 05:49:57 PM by puppytrax »
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2006, 05:56:36 PM »
Just use the normal electronic solder available at Radio Shack...not the lead free stuff...it really doesn't work well...
Unless you plan to let small children eat the stuff...I doubt that it's going to kill someone!!!
Results of the litigious society that we live in!


Offline Clyde

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 474
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2006, 06:07:47 PM »
Thanks very much for the write up and pics. It is so helpful to get this sort of detail.
Could you advise what epoxy you used? Is it anything special?
Did you look at epoxying a fitting on so that you could change the HT leads at a future stage or use different lengths etc of HT wire?
I have seen fittings that you can join HTs with and was wondering if you could solder and epoxy them on to the coil.
Thanks again Clyde
SOHC4 #1909
Honda CB750 K0(original and unrestored), K1(in pieces), K2(restored), F1(restored), 76 750a (awaiting restoration), 1966 Honda CB72
Suzuki GT750 1972 (restored), Kawasaki Z1 1973 (restored)

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2006, 06:17:11 PM »
Hey Clyde..
I just used std. 5 min Clear epoxy....I don't think I would use a filled epoxy like JB weld...it may actually have some ground up aluminum in it...not sure...But that might ground out the HT Lead.
I just replaced the wires as from the factory...figure if these last another 30 years...I won't care if they go out!!!
I think that you could easily add a fitting to make the wires changeable though.


Offline puppytrax

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,059
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2006, 06:31:24 PM »
Just use the normal electronic solder available at Radio Shack...not the lead free stuff...

I wonder if the Radio Shack solder has *any* lead in it...here's a snip from a web site -

Normal electronics grade solder is now "lead free" and typically contains Sn 97 Ag 2.5 Cu 0.5 (i.e. 97% tin, 2.5% silver and 0.5% copper). It already contains cores of "flux" which helps the molten solder to flow more easily over the joint. Flux removes oxides which arise during heating, and is seen as a brown fluid bubbling away on the joint. The use of separate acid flux paste (e.g. as used by plumbers) should NEVER be necessary in normal electronics applications because electronics-grade solder already contains the correct grade of flux!

Lead has been outlawed since sometime in the 80's for solder in some parts of the world...I still have a small tube that i bought sometime back in the 80's, but the composition is unreadable...it was very expensive, though...   :P
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2006, 06:55:05 PM »
My roll is very old too...the lable is LONG GONE...
Tried some new stuff and it didn't want to flow...My old solder flowed in very nicely!

Offline SteveD CB500F

  • Global Moderator
  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,553
  • Ride on the Steel Breeze...
    • TVAM
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2006, 01:10:58 AM »

Lead has been outlawed since sometime in the 80's for solder in some parts of the world...


I was an electronics design engineer back in the 80's (Racal Communications in UK). We made military VHF communications equipment and were absolutely horrified when the EU banned lead in solder. We all thought it was the end of the world and there were some serious worries about the long-term longevity of solder joints made with the "new" solder.

Just inertia really.
SOHC4 Member #2393
2015 Tiger 800 XRT
1971 CB500K0 (US Model)

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2006, 06:36:09 AM »
Hey Steve....
The stuff here really doesn't seem to flow very well...and seems to take more heat to get a nice smooth joint.
Not sure how well the newer stuff does with vibration etc...
Bugs me that I can't buy lead based solder...but can buy cases of cigarettes!!!

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,979
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2006, 07:17:01 AM »
I can still buy the good old 60/40 solder here from a wholesaler but it wont be cheap to ship!
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

mmmpeanutbutter

  • Guest
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2006, 07:25:42 AM »
Just paid too much for a coil at a salvage yard cause one of my wires was bad.  Wish I had seen this post first!   ::)

Oh well, at least I'll have a backup.

Great info!


Offline Raul CB750K1

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,881
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2006, 08:01:51 AM »
Tell you what, my Sanglas has a huge Bosch automotive coil. I have some tiny spare coils from my modern Suzuki GZ250 that I plan to try. Shouldn't any coil be just fine? I mean, I know about the 3 ohm and the 5 ohm and the high voltage and the compression and all that stuff, but coil technology hasn't envolved so much in these 30 years. On the contrary, manufacturing processes allow us to build smaller things. While it's good to be able to repair an old coils, I bought my GZ250 coils for about 5 bucks each. Is it really worth the effort?

Raul


Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2006, 08:47:04 AM »
Hey Raul;
There are a lot of different kinds of ignition systems...the CDI coils probably won't work with our point system...
But for 5 bucks it's probably worth a try.
I could have bought a new set of coils, but they are a bit pricey and I figured this was worth a try.
Seems to work quite well.

Offline Raul CB750K1

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,881
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2006, 01:50:59 AM »
Hey Raul;
There are a lot of different kinds of ignition systems...the CDI coils probably won't work with our point system...
But for 5 bucks it's probably worth a try.
I could have bought a new set of coils, but they are a bit pricey and I figured this was worth a try.
Seems to work quite well.
I feel your pain, mine have also hardened leads and I've chasing them on eBay but still too pricey in my opinion. I plan to reuse them even with the hard leads, but I will probably follow your advice if I can't get a decent set at a decent price.


Regarding the coils, what's really the difference between points and CDI? After all, the coil is energized to open the circuit suddenly and generate the spark on the secondary winding. Does it really matter wether it's a mechanical breaker or a thyristor the one that opens the circuit?

Raul

Offline hcritz

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2006, 07:43:29 AM »
Hey Raul...
Two Tired would probably have a better explanation, but as I understand it, the CDI systems...(Cap. Discharge.Ign.) charge up a capacitor to a fairly high voltage...and then release it to the coil with a trigger. The old transistor ones used to make a high pitch whining noise as it stepped up the voltage to charge the cap... a lot like the noise of a camera flash charging...same sort of thing. I'm sure the wire Dia. and number of turns for the primary are much different than a coil designed to fire at the collapse of a 12V field...
Changing the wires on your old coils isn't that hard to do...mostly just a bit of time and soldering...
My bike ran really well before...but it's so much smoother especially at low RPM under load...
I think the old plug wires just weren't getting the job done...Was well worth my time. AND...the next time I get caught in the rain I won't be afraid the ignition will drown out and leave me sitting on the side of the road in a downpour!


Offline Raul CB750K1

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,881
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2006, 08:35:53 AM »
Hey Raul...
Two Tired would probably have a better explanation, but as I understand it, the CDI systems...(Cap. Discharge.Ign.) charge up a capacitor to a fairly high voltage...and then release it to the coil with a trigger. The old transistor ones used to make a high pitch whining noise as it stepped up the voltage to charge the cap... a lot like the noise of a camera flash charging...same sort of thing. I'm sure the wire Dia. and number of turns for the primary are much different than a coil designed to fire at the collapse of a 12V field...
Changing the wires on your old coils isn't that hard to do...mostly just a bit of time and soldering...
My bike ran really well before...but it's so much smoother especially at low RPM under load...
I think the old plug wires just weren't getting the job done...Was well worth my time. AND...the next time I get caught in the rain I won't be afraid the ignition will drown out and leave me sitting on the side of the road in a downpour!

Yeah, that makes sense. I didn't think about the capacitor. I guess I will take my dremel out before coil reassembly and give it a try following your steps.


Raul



Offline puppytrax

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,059
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2006, 11:40:54 AM »
Tell you what, my Sanglas has a huge Bosch automotive coil...Shouldn't any coil be just fine?

I have no idea what a Sanglas is, but back in the 70's I ran a Yamaha DT1-B short tracker with a Ford auto coil...(it was the same dia as a regular auto coil, but a bit shorter)..."Toatal Loss" electrical system; recharge/change batteries between heats...never had a problem...and I knew less about electricity then than I do now...(I know; that's hard to believe!)...   ::)
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Ibsen

  • Guest
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2006, 02:32:27 PM »
If you ever wondered about how the moulded plug wires are attached to a coil:




Offline Raul CB750K1

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,881
Re: Replaced my plug wires on stock coils...anyone interested?
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2006, 02:23:24 AM »
Man! that's truly "Plug and Play"...


Raul