Author Topic: Weird idea  (Read 2962 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline phil71

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,813
Weird idea
« on: March 25, 2012, 12:29:53 PM »
So, in thinking about balancing carbs.. I started thinking about my hot rods over the years...  and I can see a benefit to linking the intakes to help balance flow based on demand. What, if any , are the downsides to putting nipples in to the sync ports and joining all 4 with a vacuum tee? I would think it would help smooth things out.
Thoughts?

Offline ekpent

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,512
  • To many bikes-but lookin' for more
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2012, 01:16:23 PM »
Seems that the vac is more mechanical by the height of the slide in each carb on these engines and each cylinder almost operates independently rather than having a common manifold.??  Tech is not my bag though-Bring on TT  :)

Offline Gonzowerke

  • I burn asses like a Bhut Jolokia, 'cause I'm a real
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
  • Member #106, Owner of the ORIGINAL Frankenbike!
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2012, 01:46:26 PM »
I'm not an engineer, but I think it might run worse, or at the least, show no change at all, as the sync port is so small. IT might act like a vacuum leak though. These engines are different in that you don't have a common plenum with runners leading to the intake ports. For operational purposes, think of it as four one cylinder engines tied together. Another issue is the purely mechanical carbs. It may work on constant velocity carbs, where vacuum dictates what the slide is doing, but I think for ours it will be a no-go.
1977 F2 "Highway Star"
1977 F2 "Bike-In-A-Box"
1978 K8 "Frankenbike"
1991 CRX Si "Buzz Bomb"
2000 Jeep Wrangler "UBoat"
2011 BMW S1000RR "TIE Fighter"

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,717
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2012, 01:50:57 PM »
You did not even tell us which carbs or year of bike you have.
There are mechanically actuated carb slides and vacuum actuated carb slides.

Also even though the cylinders could have the vacuum connected together not all the cylinders are on the same stroke at the same time.

You would be creating a vacuum leak in some of the cylinders some of the time.

It would just complicate things more. No benefit really.


Offline phil71

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2012, 02:39:48 PM »
why think of it as 4  single-cylinder engines? That's not really accurate at all, sharing a crank and cam. I was thinking about this after doing a tune-up on a 250 twin nighthawk.. it had a manifold and 1 carb, and was remarkably smooth. Also, rebuilding the carb on my '60 thunderbird, it's a mechanical 4 barrel, and the manifold shares vacuum between cylinders..  many triumphs of the 60's had a vacuum balance tube, and I can tell you, that it's more forgiving to tune those #$%*ty amals than without it.
  I know a tube that small wouldn't do a lot, but I have to think it would make idle to part throttle a little more docile.
Tell ya what, I'll try it 2 ways... joining 2 and 2, so they're on the same stroke, then all 4.
I'll try it on a '78F with PDs.
I'd think that the stroke discrepancy would matter more to a CV carb'd bike, and possibly make it run funny.


Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2012, 02:51:47 PM »
One must be aware that there is a difference between air flow and air pressure, even though their is often a relationship.  In the vacuum balance adjustment, we are really looking to balanced air volumes going to each individual cylinder.  Given they are all equal in construction, the pressure can be used to infer this balance as when all mechanical factors are equal, so should the pressures.  Balance tubes would essentially allow the gauges to lie about actual air volume flow in each carb by contaminating the otherwise sole source pressure readings.

One of the reasons why we can use slide style carbs on the SOHC4 is because the intakes have vacuum pulses, rather than a steady vacuum level.
Steady vacuum places side loads on the slide making them difficult to move up and down and would wear quickly if forced during this condition.  This is why most auto carburetors have butterfly style air regulators, rather than slides, working against the common vacuum from 6 or 8 cylinders placing an average vacuum level against the air flow inlet restrictor.

I would think that for the vacuum balancing tubes to be truly effective in averaging pressure, they would need to be rather large tubes to allow air to flow rapidly among ports.  But, then rather than laminar flow going into the intake valve port from carb, there would be flow diverted and alternately mixed with turbulent cross flow from other ports.  At High RPMs/high intake velocity/volumes, such turbulent flow would wreak havoc on cylinder chamber filling efficiency.

Commonizing the four intake runners would essentially make vacuum balancing totally irrelevant.  And, a method for assuring the identical mechanical slide position in each carb a requirement, in order to have all the individual carbs providing equal contributions.  I would think that slide wear/movement issues might also surface with such a modification.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Rookster

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 736
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2012, 05:43:15 PM »
Quote
many triumphs of the 60's had a vacuum balance tube

They sure did.  It is a 1/4 hose that connects the manifolds.  The big difference I see is that on the Triumph it is either / or cylinder drawing mixture and they fire opposite each other.  I'm thinking you would have to connect 1 to 4 and 2 to 3 to get the same type of scenario as the Triumph twin.  You couldn't just tie them all in together or to the inlet rubber next to each.  It would be hard to seal as well becuase the inlet manifolds are rubber where on the Triumph they are aluminum.  That doesn't mean it won't help to smooth out idle and 1/4 throttle roll ons though.  This idea has merit and at least has a solid foundation.  As TT said the slide heights would have to be equal = bench synch not so much vaccum synched.  That's how you do it on a Triumph with the inlet manifold balance tube.  This is a really interesting idea to me.

Scott

Offline Gonzowerke

  • I burn asses like a Bhut Jolokia, 'cause I'm a real
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
  • Member #106, Owner of the ORIGINAL Frankenbike!
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2012, 05:46:46 PM »
why think of it as 4  single-cylinder engines? That's not really accurate at all, sharing a crank and cam.

Because of the individual carbs and exhaust pipes(stock exhaust anyway) and the lack of a common plenum. As for the cam and crank, I said "four one cylinder engines tied together"
single or quad doesn't matter for this discussion.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 05:50:35 PM by Gonzowerke »
1977 F2 "Highway Star"
1977 F2 "Bike-In-A-Box"
1978 K8 "Frankenbike"
1991 CRX Si "Buzz Bomb"
2000 Jeep Wrangler "UBoat"
2011 BMW S1000RR "TIE Fighter"

Offline fmctm1sw

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,042
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2012, 06:49:21 PM »
I definitely respect the opinions of the senior members of the board but it's seems simple enough to do.  I'd just do it and see what happened.  Trial and error, I figured out many a thing that way (... and destroyed a few things too)  :-X 
Quote from: 754
Dude is that a tire ? or an O-ring..??

Quote from: inkscars
This is not a pod thread
This is not a #$%* on my vacuum gauges thread
This is a help or GTFO thread.

1973 CB350F
1973 CB350G
1975 CB550K
1983 GL650I
1973 CB750K3 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=92888.0)
1984 Kawasaki KLT-250 (AKA 3 wheeler of death)
1994 Honda TRX300
1999 Honda TRX250

Offline my78k

  • I am Meat-O of the Hungry Horses MC
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,839
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2012, 07:46:03 PM »
Hee hee hee....you said nipples!

Sorry, Captain Morgan and I have been hanging out tonight...

Dennis

Offline phil71

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2012, 08:04:07 PM »
Rookster, the sync ports aren't on the rubbber boots, but on the intake extensions. I think it'll seal okay.

Offline trueblue

  • A person who has had many interesting experiences, some of which are true, is known as an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,124
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2012, 03:38:05 AM »
subscribed
1979 CB650Z
Nothing can be idiot proofed, the world keeps producing better idiots.
Electronic Guages for your SOHC 4

Offline Eddie

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 237
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2012, 05:26:29 AM »
mee too !

Offline Rookster

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 736
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2012, 05:41:06 AM »
Phil,
In order to effectively do this you need a larger diameter hose than the synch ports.  The Triumph used 1/4 hose.  Since 2 CB750 cylinders are smaller than 2 triumph cylinders then you may not need 1/4 hose but I wouldn't go much smaller.  Connecting the synch ports will effect carb settings and really make it hard to get a smooth idle.  Besides I don't think connecting the synch ports will have any noticable effect becuase there just isn't enough transfer of volume to make much difference.  I think you need to tie them together from the carb boots well before the carbs.  Let us know how it goes.

Scott

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,717
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2012, 06:50:04 AM »
why think of it as 4  single-cylinder engines? That's not really accurate at all, sharing a crank and cam.

Because of the individual carbs and exhaust pipes(stock exhaust anyway) and the lack of a common plenum. As for the cam and crank, I said "four one cylinder engines tied together"
single or quad doesn't matter for this discussion.

It is not 4 one cylinder engines tied together,
It is 4 one cylinder engines on different phases tied together.

Offline phil71

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2012, 09:38:34 AM »
I would agree if we were talking about a WWII aircraft engine... But let's face it, aside from air cooling an separate carbs , a sohc 750 may as well be a civic engine.

Offline Gonzowerke

  • I burn asses like a Bhut Jolokia, 'cause I'm a real
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
  • Member #106, Owner of the ORIGINAL Frankenbike!
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2012, 09:45:19 AM »
why think of it as 4  single-cylinder engines? That's not really accurate at all, sharing a crank and cam.

Because of the individual carbs and exhaust pipes(stock exhaust anyway) and the lack of a common plenum. As for the cam and crank, I said "four one cylinder engines tied together"
single or quad doesn't matter for this discussion.

As the great John Belushi would say...Welllll Excuuuuuuuuuuse meeeeeeeee! I guess I should have just said 4 separate fuel circuits. Happy Now?


It is not 4 one cylinder engines tied together,
It is 4 one cylinder engines on different phases tied together.
1977 F2 "Highway Star"
1977 F2 "Bike-In-A-Box"
1978 K8 "Frankenbike"
1991 CRX Si "Buzz Bomb"
2000 Jeep Wrangler "UBoat"
2011 BMW S1000RR "TIE Fighter"

Offline kpier883

  • is quite the
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 677
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2012, 10:04:50 AM »
Subscribing
74 CB750
80 CBX
82 KZ1000 K2 (LTD)
57 1/2 ton chevy

Offline phil71

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2012, 01:56:56 PM »
Sorry I haven't updated this yet, but I haven't had the time to run this little test yet. Soon, I hope. Work gets in the way of fun.

Offline Danno

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 715
  • 74 CB550,75 GL1000,76 KZ400,77 GL1000,73 CB750
Re: Weird idea
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2012, 12:37:55 AM »
it could work if as pointed out earlier if you tied the correct cylinders together however you will sacrifice some throttle response to the balancing effect also linking the carbs together at the vacuum ports could adversely affect intake velocity
when you own a motorcycle the wife does not have to find you handy she just has to find you