Author Topic: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750  (Read 39282 times)

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Offline Supermex01

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Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« on: March 29, 2012, 07:54:45 AM »
I will like my first mod for my 750 to be the individual filter pods but more air means more fuel I may have to install bigger jets
I'm sure some one already did that so I'm looking for info
Does anyone know what size and where to get jets for 76 CB 750 ?

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2012, 08:08:36 AM »
Hector, it's just a case of doing plug chops with what you have. Jets will be available from most Honda dealers.
This posting should be in the sohc4/bikes section, you will get more replies there.
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Offline nayto550

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2012, 08:40:26 AM »
Here's a general guide for initial jet changes, posted by dawdish in forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=103861.0.  Seems like a good place to start to get you in the neighborhood for jetting with your new setup.  Jet kits can be had from Sirius Consolidated.

FROM; DO THE TON...

Quote
MAIN FUEL JET SIZE CHANGES NEEDED PER TYPICAL MODIFICATION:


Typical Exhaust Changes:

+2 main fuel jet size for custom 4-into-2 exhaust

or

+4 main fuel jet sizes for 4-into-1 exhaust

or

+4 main jet sizes for no muffler (open headers)


Typical Intake Changes:

+2 main fuel jet sizes for single K&N filter (inside a stock airbox)

or

+2 main fuel jet size for drilling holes in the airbox with stock filter

or

+4 main fuel jet sizes for individual pod filters (no airbox)



Additional changes:

- Add up all the main fuel jet size increases and subtract 2 sizes.

- Decrease main fuel jet size by 2 sizes per every 2000' above sea level.

- Under a mis-match condition, such as when using pod filters with a 100% stock exhaust, or 4-into-1 header with stock filter and air box, then subtract 2 main fuel jet sizes.


PILOT FUEL JET SIZES CHANGES NEEDED PER TYPICAL MODIFICATION:

Pilot fuel jet size changes are related only to the change in main fuel jet sizes according to the main fuel jet size formula described above. Note that this pilot fuel jet rule is for the main fuel jet size change BEFORE any main fuel jet altitude compensation is factored in:

Increase the pilot fuel jet size +1 for every +3 main fuel jet size increases.

Additional changes:

- Decrease pilot fuel jet size by 1 for every 6000' above sea level.



PRECAUTIONS:

- Make sure your carbs are in perfect working order before making jet changes....meaning fully cleaned internally and rebuilt, operating properly in their stock configuration, proper sized air jets and needles, etc. Otherwise, you'll like find that all of your efforts are going to be a HUGE waste of time.

- Check plug color often and adjust as needed, 2 main fuel jet sizes at a time and 1 pilot fuel jet size at a time. Bright white plug insulators are a sign of an overly lean fuel mixture condition and WILL cause damage to your engine over time, up to and including engine seizure!

- Synch the carbs after each jet change.

- Make sure the floats are set correctly

- Seriously consider purchasing a Colortune Plug Tuning kit.

- You may find it necessary to make changes to the size or shimming of the main jet needle. There are no guidelines on what or how to do these changes, this is true trial-and-error tuning!



EXAMPLE:

A 1982 XJ550RJ Seca using an aftermarket Supertrapp 4-into-1 exhaust and a single K&N air filter in the stock, unmodified airbox. Bike is primarily operated at an altitude of 2600 feet above sea level.

XJ550 Seca Stock Mikuni BS28-series Carb Jetting:

#112.5 Main Fuel Jet
#35 Pilot Fuel Jet
#70 Main Air Jet
#170 Pilot Air Jet
4GZ11 Needle


MAIN FUEL JET SIZE CALCULATIONS:

Changes made:

Exhaust:
4 into 1 with Supertrapp = +4 Sizes Main Fuel Jet

Intake:
K&N Pod Filters = +4 sizes Main Fuel Jet
----------------------------
Equals: +8 main fuel jet sizes above baseline
Subtract: -2 main fuel jet size per formula above
----------------------------
Equals: +6 main fuel jet sizes due to modifications, thus:

Stock main fuel jet size is: #112.5
+ 6 additional sizes
= a #118.5 main fuel jet size
---------------------------
Subtract: -2 main fuel jet sizes for Altitude of 2500' Average

= #118.5 calculated from above
-2 jet sizes for altitude adjustment

= a #116.5 main fuel jet size.


PILOT FUEL JET SIZE CALCULATIONS:

The formula is: +1 pilot jet size increase for every +3 main jet sizes increased.

Stock pilot fuel jet size is: #35
+ 2 additional jet sizes (since we went up +6 main fuel jet sizes before the altitude compensation was factored in):

= a #37 pilot fuel jet size.

Note that no altitude compensation is needed on the pilot fuel jet since our elevation is less than 6000' a-s-l.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 12:59:24 PM by nayto550 »
1976 CB550F
1976 CB750F - in resurrection process
1988 HD FLHS

Offline Supermex01

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2012, 09:35:57 AM »
Sweet
Thanks guys I will let you know my findings /results when I do it.
Sam I'll post on the forum you suggested and see what I ghet there.
thank you

Offline kpier883

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2012, 09:38:50 AM »
Many Honda shops have them.  My local shop can get them but it is usually easier for me to look up the part number and provide it to them.

Service Honda has them.  This is a link to their site for the parts for a 1976 CB750.  You may notice that the stock Honda main jet is listed as a 105 and the pilot (slow) jet is listed as a 40.  See ref# 37 and 38. 

http://www.xtremeusa.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=125613&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1976&fveh=2991


For the Keihin main jets used in these bikes, the part number is indicative of the size of the jet:
keihin jet 99114-246-1050  will be a 105
keihin jet 99114-246-1150  will be a 115

For the pilot jet the same is true:
Keihin slow jet 99124-076-0400  will be a #40 pilot

I would try to get genuine Keihin jets rather than those that come in a rebuild kit such as Keyster.

Finally, may I suggest that you solve any and all idle and performance problems before chaning to pods.  That way you are starting from a known good point and won't have to wonder if any hard to solve problem is a result of the pods or something else. 

Best of luck.



74 CB750
80 CBX
82 KZ1000 K2 (LTD)
57 1/2 ton chevy

Offline lrutt

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2012, 09:54:06 AM »
I wonder if this has been asked before???
06 Harley Sporster 1200C, 06 Triumph Scrambler, 01 Ducati Chromo 900, 01 Honda XR650L, 94 Harley Heritage, 88 Honda Hawk GT, 84 Yamaha Virago 1000, 78 Honda 750K w/sidecar, 77 Moto Guzzi Lemans 850, 76 Honda CB750K, 73 Norton 850, 73 Honda Z50, 70 & 65 Honda Trail 90, 70 & 71 Triumph 650s, 65 Honda 305 Dream, 81 Honda 70 Passport, 70 Suzuki T250II, 71 Yamaha 360 RT1B, 77 BMW R75/7, 75 Honda CB550K, 70 Honda CT70

Offline Shanedalion

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2012, 10:11:44 AM »
I wonder if this has been asked before???

What is it with people always #$%*ing about questions being asked again??? Isnt this a FORUM?? What type of forum would it be if the same questions never got asked again? A pretty frickin dead one, thats what kind! I can read 10 different threads on the same subject and glean different information from each one! Maybe someone that knows the answer is reading the forum that day? NO! That couldnt possibly be!, or could it? GET OVER IT! If you seen a question before and it just kills you that somene is asking the same question how about you ignore it? You obviously have nothing to add to the subject?

Offline kpier883

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2012, 11:14:59 AM »
One of the things I like about the forum is that it serves as a "memory" that is better than my memory.  For example, I have trouble remembering what jets I have in my bike.  But during the period of time where I was experimenting with jetting I made a note in an ongoing thread on the forum. 

Although it was not my intent to use that thread for future reference, the reality is that if I can come up with the right search criteria, then I can always get back to that thread and re-discover what I did.  I find that searching from google often helps me locate something on this forum more effectively than the internal search mechanism.  However, there are times when no amount of searching helps me to find something that I "think"  ;) I remember.

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57 1/2 ton chevy

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2012, 11:23:12 AM »
I will like my first mod for my 750 to be the individual filter pods but more air means more fuel I may have to install bigger jets

You are kidding yourself it you think you'll be getting more volume of air.  Pod filters raise the carb bore throat pressure, which is what drives the fuel though the jets.  You need to make the jets larger because of the pressures, not the air volume.  The resulting A/F ratio should end up the same as with the stock air box and the engine's displacement/cam profile, determines the air volume drawn in. 
And IF you can get more power with this screwdriver mod, it will be at or above red line RPM only where operation shortens engine life.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline nayto550

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2012, 02:01:04 PM »
I will like my first mod for my 750 to be the individual filter pods but more air means more fuel I may have to install bigger jets

You are kidding yourself it you think you'll be getting more volume of air.

I agree that there would be no change in air volume, as volume is dictacted by the displacement of the cylinders.  However, he didn't say larger volume, he said "more air".  By reducing the restriction on the upstream side of the venturi, the mass flowrate will most certainly increase (that's what causes the pressure increase in the throat), while the volume flowrate remains unchanged.

And IF you can get more power with this screwdriver mod, it will be at or above red line RPM only where operation shortens engine life.

This I agree with 100%.  Unless you're drag racing or running around within 2000 rpm of the redline, there will not be any decernable power gains, and very well may decrease power in the lower to mid rpm ranges. 

Of course if you're like me that doesn't matter, even though it will never be abused by racing around at redline speeds I'm going to put pods on my chopped 750 because they look nice, but on my 550 cafe I left the stock box with a K&N filter for the full range power.
1976 CB550F
1976 CB750F - in resurrection process
1988 HD FLHS

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2012, 02:42:44 PM »
I agree that there would be no change in air volume, as volume is dictacted by the displacement of the cylinders.  However, he didn't say larger volume, he said "more air".  By reducing the restriction on the upstream side of the venturi, the mass flowrate will most certainly increase (that's what causes the pressure increase in the throat), while the volume flowrate remains unchanged.

I'm not sure.  We seems to be arguing on the same side of a point, yet it feels like disagreement.
The pressure applied to push fuel through the jets comes from outside atmospheric. Without the piston falling, the same pressure is inside the carb throats as is outside and jets don't flow.

When the piston does fall, the pressure is reduced until the outside air inrushes to fill it.  Pod filters change the distance the air must travel to equalize, and brings the outside atmospheric source closer to the jet outlets, and reducing jet flow.  It is the duct length change that causes the majority pressure change at the jet outlets NOT the filter membrane.  The stock air filter itself doesn't cause much of a pressure drop until high flow velocities are demanded and the air cannot find enough tiny passages to flow through, as it's filter membrane area is many many times greater than the engine demand or duct cross section area.  It is only at very high velocities that any restriction becomes a pressure factor, up around red line.

Perhaps you are trying to argue that higher pressures increase mass or density, which is true.  But it's that same higher pressure that reduces the fuel quantity that the jet flows, and I believe that is the dominant factor in the case of pod style filter, brought on mainly by the reduction of duct length, rather the filter media over 80% of the engine's operating band.  At high flow speeds, both the filter media type/area and duct length can all become contributing "restrictions".

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83904.msg945765#msg945765

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Supermex01

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2012, 03:25:09 PM »
Interesting,
I'm learning a lot.
The looks of the pod filter VS low to midrange power line.
This is the reason I'm here asking this type of questions hoping that may be some one on sea level altitude may experimented with this mod before I go ahead and spend the money to do it.
I'm not racing this bike and the stock air box with the K&N filter sounds like a good option althgough I was looking forward to the individual filter pod look,
I do appreciate all comments and hope not to cause any troubles or arguments.
Thank you never the less

Offline nayto550

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2012, 03:43:00 PM »
I'm not sure.  We seems to be arguing on the same side of a point, yet it feels like disagreement.

Yep.  I'm pretty sure we're thinking along the same lines.  I haven't thought this hard about fluid dynamics since I was in college, it hurts my head.   :o

Suffice to say, I think we can both agree that unless your racing and need every ounce of power at the top end or you're willing to give up a bit of power for aesthetics, pods probably aren't what you want.
1976 CB550F
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1988 HD FLHS

Offline kpier883

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2012, 04:42:07 PM »
There are definitely strong opinions on pods vs no pods.  I have always run the stock airbox on my 750.  However, on a CBX that I bought a few years ago the previous owner had installed K&N pods.  I did a complete carb rebuild to clean them out and fix a lot of leaks.  But the bike was difficult to start off, particularly uphill.  I got into a pickle a few times in the middle of intersections and such.    It just seemed incapable of picking up the gas to get started.  Once the bike was moving along I didnt have problems.

One day I rode to work and it rained really hard during the day.  I came out to find the motor hydrolocked.  Fortunately removing spark plugs and turning the motor over blew the water out of the cylinders without causing any damage.  The CBX engine leans forward which invites rain water to run INTO the engine.  That probably would not be a problem on the CB series, but you might want to avoid parking with the front wheel pointed downhill when running pods. 

Anyway, I bought an original airbox to replace the pods on the CBX and now I don't have to worry about hydrolock any more.  But the real bonus I got is the exceptional idle and off-idle performance!  I no longer have ANY problems getting the bike moving. 

For me pods are not worth the hassle, but I run mostly stock engines.  The CBX does have a big bore kit to 1150, but otherwise mostly stock. 

So there you go, my $.02

« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 04:46:29 PM by kpier883 »
74 CB750
80 CBX
82 KZ1000 K2 (LTD)
57 1/2 ton chevy

Offline steam-powered man

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2012, 08:14:33 PM »
supermax, what exhaust do you have?

my 76cb750k runs fine w/pods and Jardine turnouts.  i left the side covers in place in an effort to create more "still air" than seen on cafe' bikes.  my pipes are baffled/more restrictive than more common 4/1 mac exhaust.  i think this helps.   

my jetting (0-2000ft) is;
slow jets - 40
mains - 110
needles - 2nd slot up from bottom
air screws 1 1/4T out
carbs are 086a

engine pulls very strong up to 85mph (chickened out), no flat spots, no burbling/popping on closed throttle decel.  #1 a little rich at idle, others are nice. 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 08:16:16 PM by steam-powered man »
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Offline scottly

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2012, 08:39:04 PM »
Hec, welcome to the forum! ;D
Check out this thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=79491.0
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Offline hunter76cb750

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Re: Re-jetting carbs with individual filter pods? CB 750
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2014, 02:00:21 PM »
I have a question about this. I have a 76 cb750 it has individual filters with a 4 Into 2 aftermarket exhaust. If I were to change the jets according to the formula above, how far out would the air/fuel screws need to be turned out in order for the bike to run correctly. Thanks