Topic: What I have been saying...

[lucky]

Today I saw an ad that proved what I have been telling you all for months.
You do not need an o ring chain.

In the new Rocky Mountain catalogue #520 regular NON O ring chain is being sold as
...get this... RACING CHAIN. Quote "excellent impact resistance", lighter weight,also listed as the SAME tensile strength (7,644 lbs.) as their#520 "O" ring chain.
BTW this size and rating of chain would only be for a 90cc bike because of the low tensile strength.
Except you do not need $100 worth of special tools to put it on.
Master link included.

All you need is regular chain.

On the Gixer website today I noticed someone telling everyone that the O ring chain was much better. I guess they did not read the tensile strength ratings from the manufacturers web site.

I am not going to join the forum and look up all the data and give it to them if they  are too lazy or convinced that the O ring chain is better.

[FrankenFrankenstuff]

I thought youve been telling us for months "Do not grind welds on frame, do not weld frame, why did you cut that off the frame, that is Bondo and not a weld, no, no dont use buble gum to hold that, you idiot oil goes in there not ATF, YOU NEED TO REPLACE THE NEEEEEEDDDDLLLLLLES"

[kajtek]

I didn't need special tools to fit my o ring chain, i just bought a master clip link. Chain breaker tool was 30 quid. Done. And now my chain is quieter, and should last longer with proper maintenance. Job done!

[KJ790]

What $100 special tools are you using for o-ring chains? I've run a lot of chains and never needed any special tool to put on an o-ring chain that a standard chain did not require...

[lucky]

I thought youve been telling us for months "Do not grind welds on frame, do not weld frame, why did you cut that off the frame, that is Bondo and not a weld, no, no dont use buble gum to hold that, you idiot oil goes in there not ATF, YOU NEED TO REPLACE THE NEEEEEEDDDDLLLLLLES"

That is correct information. Do not grind on welds on a motorcycle frame.
The weld bead or profile of the weld is part of its strength. I am a certified welder and a Certified welding Inspector and have been welding most of my life.
I feel qualified to make that statement. Ignore that at your own risk.

If it is a barbeque grill go ahead and grind away.

[MCRider]

Racers use non-Oring "racing chain" because it draws (nominally) less horsepower. And racers are sensitive to that.

Sure it can be as strong, but no stronger than a comparable ORing chain.

There is no claim as to longevity on a street bike. Which is the real life issue, what we are talking about.

This ad "proves" nothing.

[lucky]

Racers use non-Oring "racing chain" because it draws (nominally) less horsepower. And racers are sensitive to that.

Sure it can be as strong, but no stronger than a comparable ORing chain.

There is no claim as to longevity on a street bike. Which is the real life issue, what we are talking about.

This ad "proves" nothing.

How would it draw less horse power?? makes no sense. it is still a roller chain.

[70CB750]

Every power transfer wastes energy and o ring more than non o ring due to internal resistance and also the mas involved.

[754]

 It draws more hp for the same reason you cant push the sideplate in place with your fingers....

[MCRider]

Well known fact in the performance community. The ORings present additional friction between the plates. Racers care. Street riders don't.

[754]

 The longer the race, the more likely they are to use o or X ring...

[70CB750]

Would the loss be say 1/10th of hp or few hps?  Hondaman states it few times in his book, but as far as I remember no numbers were mentioned.

[MCRider]

Would the loss be say 1/10th of hp or few hps?  Hondaman states it few times in his book, but as far as I remember no numbers were mentioned.

That's why i said "nominal". Its not much maybe 1-2%. On a 50hp bike, .5 to 1 hp. But for a racer that spends  lots of $ and time per horsepower (after the base is established) often, its a cheap quick way to gain.

As 754 says, if its a sprint race, go non-oring. If its an endurance race, maybe an ORing. Maybe not.

[KJ790]

This is a topic of debate in almost every form of motorcycle racing. A cold o-ring chain does have noticeably more drag than a standard chain due to the friction between the o-rings and the plates, however once it warms up from friction the amount of drag drops significantly. There are a few dyno tests around that show that a warm o-ring chain does not cause a noticeable power loss over a standard chain.

[MCRider]

This is a topic of debate in almost every form of motorcycle racing. A cold o-ring chain does have noticeably more drag than a standard chain due to the friction between the o-rings and the plates, however once it warms up from friction the amount of drag drops significantly. There are a few dyno tests around that show that a warm o-ring chain does not cause a noticeable power loss over a standard chain.

I would agree with that.

But nevertheless power hungry racers will go non-Oring just in case, don't you think? At least it is a powerful old wives tale.

And the real point Lucky is trying to make is that a non-ORing chain provides longevity equal to an ORing chain, which this ad does not prove, IMO.

[70CB750]

Good info, thank you.

Not trying to start flame war but I run O ring, because I have plenty to do without frequent chain maintenance.

[MCRider]

AS KJ90 says, its a discussion on every forum, just Google it and get some popcorn.

Its simply a common sense issue IMO. OEMs use ORing chains as they are infinitely more customer friendly than non oring chains. Sure if you are obsessively fastidious with the care of your ORing chain, you may be able to get longevity roughly equal to an average ORing chain.

IF you neglect a non-oring chain for one cycle its doomed. That's where most of us are. If I'm on a 1000 mile romp, I really don't want to maintain a chain. I can count on 1 hand the number of times I serviced my hawkGT chain in 25,000 miles. It was still on the original adjustment indexes when I took it off to upgrade to a 520 (lighter, though still an Oring chain). Another 15thou with the same results.

Back when I was riding my CB750, in 50,000+ miles I put 10 non Oring chains on it. Sure my maintenance history was pitiful. But that's what I'm saying. I've got better things to do

[Duke McDukiedook]

Don't believe everything you read in ads, take it with a big grain of kosher salt.

[lucky]

Would the loss be say 1/10th of hp or few hps?  Hondaman states it few times in his book, but as far as I remember no numbers were mentioned.

That's why i said "nominal". Its not much maybe 1-2%. On a 50hp bike, .5 to 1 hp. But for a racer that spends  lots of $ and time per horsepower (after the base is established) often, its a cheap quick way to gain.

As 754 says, if its a sprint race, go non-oring. If its an endurance race, maybe an ORing. Maybe not.

Even if you get some numbers remember that when you are talking about HP that you must ask...was that overall HP or HP at the rear wheel?

[KJ790]

Would the loss be say 1/10th of hp or few hps?  Hondaman states it few times in his book, but as far as I remember no numbers were mentioned.

That's why i said "nominal". Its not much maybe 1-2%. On a 50hp bike, .5 to 1 hp. But for a racer that spends  lots of $ and time per horsepower (after the base is established) often, its a cheap quick way to gain.

As 754 says, if its a sprint race, go non-oring. If its an endurance race, maybe an ORing. Maybe not.

Even if you get some numbers remember that when you are talking about HP that you must ask...was that overall HP or HP at the rear wheel?

The chain does not affect engine horsepower, only rear wheel horsepower (since drive train losses happen after the crank shaft). The dynos that I saw between o-ring chains and non o-ring chains were all rear wheel, performed by more than one person. Every time this debate comes up someone with a dyno decides to test it out and I have yet to see a non o-ring chain make a noticeable difference on the dyno over an o-ring chain.

[BeSeeingYou]

Today I saw an ad that proved what I have been telling you all for months.
You do not need an o ring chain.

Well I know I have taken your advice....................for the last 33 years.   Have used standard chain and maintain it with no problems.  Any trip longer than a few hundred miles I take a small can of lube along.  It's a vintage bike....I don't expect it to be maintenance free.

[FrankenFrankenstuff]

I thought youve been telling us for months "Do not grind welds on frame, do not weld frame, why did you cut that off the frame, that is Bondo and not a weld, no, no dont use buble gum to hold that, you idiot oil goes in there not ATF, YOU NEED TO REPLACE THE NEEEEEEDDDDLLLLLLES"

That is correct information. Do not grind on welds on a motorcycle frame.
The weld bead or profile of the weld is part of its strength. I am a certified welder and a Certified welding Inspector and have been welding most of my life.
I feel qualified to make that statement. Ignore that at your own risk.

If it is a barbeque grill go ahead and grind away.

Lucky, I was just busting your balls - I agree with what you have been posting about welding.

[MCRider]

Who talks about anything other than rear wheel horsepower? Unless its noted as something else.

What's "overall HP". As far as I know there is crankshaft HP, which is usually only used by those trying to trump up their numbers and obfuscate and doesn't invovle the chain or tranny, and rear wheel horsepower, which does.

[Grey]

Haven't heard anybody mention the different between non-O-Ring chains. One has rollers over pins. The other a "Solid Roller" the pin  where it is goes thru the inner plate is a larger diameter, on good quality chain, than the other roller chains. That's what they call a "racing" non O-Ring chain nowadays.

We used those back in the day endurance racing. A non solid roller we had to do about 4-5 chain adjusts in a 24hr race. Where as with the solid roller we only needed one. This was on a Yoshima "Kaz" built CB458-4 racer. We basically duplicated his bike with info from him.

I wanted to go with an O-Ring chain on a CB550F I'm working on for a friend. It won't clear the case enough. So I bought a solid roller for him.

[orange550]

I thought youve been telling us for months "Do not grind welds on frame, do not weld frame, why did you cut that off the frame, that is Bondo and not a weld, no, no dont use buble gum to hold that, you idiot oil goes in there not ATF, YOU NEED TO REPLACE THE NEEEEEEDDDDLLLLLLES"

That is correct information. Do not grind on welds on a motorcycle frame.
The weld bead or profile of the weld is part of its strength. I am a certified welder and a Certified welding Inspector and have been welding most of my life.
I feel qualified to make that statement. Ignore that at your own risk.

If it is a barbeque grill go ahead and grind away.

I was a certified ASME welder for many years, and was always taught that the bead profile that raises above the base metal adds nothing to the strength, and actually can reduce strength because it creates a slight change in the direction of the metal, and a stress point.

I was once raked-over by the welding inspector who oversaw my yearly 'pipe coupon' X-ray & bend test because of my bead profile. He lectured me about the bead not providing strength above the base metal.

Maybe it's different for right angle structure where the bead 'softens' the change in direction.

Too funny though.