Author Topic: The anatomy of a SOHC/4 gas cap  (Read 604 times)

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Offline Sw1ssdude

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The anatomy of a SOHC/4 gas cap
« on: October 06, 2023, 04:45:01 AM »
This is almost my first post in this forum (apart from my introduction), so I might as well starting off with contributing something to the forum that could be useful to others:

I had troubles with my Honda CB250G (I know its not a SOHC4, and neither is It very common outside of Europe, but the gas cap is the same flip-up design used on most SOHC4-K models).
whenever I rode it for some time, it died on red lights. It runs great when cold, but it gets worse as it gets warm, more so, if the fuel level is low. First I suspected an intake leak, or bad coils, or whatever else you can blame when your bike just doesn’t run right.

But then it dawned on me when I opened the gas cap for a refill and a lot of pressure escaped with a very well audible ‘Pffffftt’: my gas cap vent was clogged! The tank started to pressurize, causing an overly rich mixture.

After some Google-Fu I was able to pry out the spring-loaded gas cap assembly from the hinged chrome cover. Like a lot of people recommended, I blew some compressed air through the vent hole. But when I did, something inside the gas cap assembly went ’pop’ and got cocked in a way that the different shims and discs of the assembly no longer laid flush on top of each other… I googled some more and saw that the very early diecast gas caps were held together with a screw. I figured I could take my assembly apart and replace the rivet in my assembly with a bolt and nut. Since I had not much to lose, I went at it with the Dremel.

As soon as the rivet head was gone, the spring-loaded assembly came apart (I had clamped it down, but the ‘disassembly’ was still rather instantaneous…), and to my surprise, I found another rubber gasket inside. Interesting! Why would Honda go all the way and install a non-serviceable rubber gasket inside the gas cap? Some of the threads I browsed claimed the gas cap to be a one-way air valve. That’s not true, you can blow and suck air through the venthole. Also, I quickly modeled all the parts in CAD, to look at a cross section.

It looks to me that the internal seal only allows ventilation through the provided holes, both ways. It stops air from whistling trough between the various discs. But if Honda added additional holes to the parts, why did they add another gasket to seal off ‘natural’ ventilation? Is it to prevent fuel from flowing out (too quickly) if the bike is laying on its side, like a very restrictive baffle?
It’s a very complicated design for something that could be achieved with a big cork. But I think Honda had its reason to produce a 10-parts-assembly gas cap.

Whatever its purpose might be, the rubber and the steel parts of the assembly held lots of crud on the inside, and no soaking or ultrasonic cleaner would have reached it. I cleaned everything by hand, coated all the pieces with a thin film of grease (like: really, really thin) and assembled the gas cap with an M5 JIS screw and nut. After popping it back into the chrome cover, it closed and opened just as nice as before, but now it also ventilates, and stops my tank from force-feeding my carbs.

Popping out the gas cap assembly from the chrome cover is a neat trick to change the gas cap seal with ease, and to make sure the seal is wrapped around all the discs! Mounting it inside the chrome cover is a PITA, especially with stubby fingers.

Would be interesting to see if the old K0 die-cast screw type gas caps are built just as complicated. For anybody interested, here’s some pictures of the innards of a Honda gas cap:
It's not a big motorcycle, just a groovy little motorbike...

Offline newday777

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Re: The anatomy of a SOHC/4 gas cap
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2023, 07:06:32 AM »
Good write up.

Why would Honda go all the way and install a non-serviceable rubber gasket inside the gas cap? 
I think honda figured the cost of the rubber and labor was going to be more than just buying a new cap(parts were readily available then and cheap), plus they never figured these old bikes would still be around now.....
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline sevenfiveohhhh

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Re: The anatomy of a SOHC/4 gas cap
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2023, 07:53:23 AM »
Good to know! I have been wanting to try that but the unknown has prevented me from diving in. Thanks for posting!
CB750K5 Planet Blue
CB750K3 Sunrise Flake Orange
CB750K2 w/K1-Candy Garnet Brown paint
CB750K2 Trustyrusty Briar Brown Metallic

Offline MauiK3

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Re: The anatomy of a SOHC/4 gas cap
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2023, 08:04:06 AM »
surprised you had pressure build up, usually it's vacuum.
1973 CB 750 K3
10/72 build Z1 Kawasaki

Offline newday777

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Re: The anatomy of a SOHC/4 gas cap
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2023, 11:14:49 AM »
Just so you  are aware there are 2 styles of the cap guts. One with the star grabber and one without.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,191773.msg2246666.html#msg2246666
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline Kaze

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Re: The anatomy of a SOHC/4 gas cap
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2023, 03:16:45 PM »
Would you please post an "after" photo of the thing with your new m5 bolt/nut on? I don't mind drilling out a rivet, I'm more worried about getting it back together with the right pressure on that spring.


Offline robvangulik

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Re: The anatomy of a SOHC/4 gas cap
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2023, 05:55:30 AM »
surprised you had pressure build up, usually it's vacuum.
Seemed more likely to me too, though the result would be opposite, the effect of a dying engine the same...

Offline carnivorous chicken

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Re: The anatomy of a SOHC/4 gas cap
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2023, 12:07:47 PM »
surprised you had pressure build up, usually it's vacuum.

Yeah, not sure how pressure could build up unless it went from a cold garage to the warm sun...

Offline HondaMan

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Re: The anatomy of a SOHC/4 gas cap
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2023, 07:54:14 PM »
When the pressure builds up, like on a hot day, it makes the carb(s) overflow.
If the tank develops a slight vacuum as the fuel drains, it starves the carb(s) for fuel and the bike's top speed (or sometimes, ANY speed) drops off.

I recently rebuilt a CB125 where the gas cap did both. I mixed up some penetrating oil and fresh pump gasoline and soaked the gas cap in it for a whole weekend: that freed the valve without having to tear into it. This works on the CB750 (early versions up to the K6) gas caps, too.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Sw1ssdude

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Re: The anatomy of a SOHC/4 gas cap
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2023, 02:43:24 AM »
Quote
Would you please post an "after" photo of the thing with your new m5 bolt/nut on? I don't mind drilling out a rivet, I'm more worried about getting it back together with the right pressure on that spring

Unfortunately i cannot, as i did this write-up in summer (i had troubles with uploading pictures, hence the delay in posting), and since sold the bike. 250cc engine in a 360cc Bike is... underwhelming. Nice to look at, though.

But not to worry! i drew the cap to scale in CAD, and the rivet length is approximately 10mm. the M5 nut fits perfect in that little cup thing on top of the assembly, but more important, the M5-Socket does too. if you use a screw long enough, you can adjust the spring tension, just make sure you use a nylock screw.

the assembly spring is the same that pops your gas cap open, so the perfect pretension is not very critical. give it more leeway if you want a more 'lively' cas cap pop. if you compress it too much, the cap seal will no longer be pressed on the rim of the gas tank fill when closed. Just measure the height of your assembly before dismantling, and then compress it with your screw and nut to achieve the same size while reassembling.
It's not a big motorcycle, just a groovy little motorbike...

Offline Sw1ssdude

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Re: The anatomy of a SOHC/4 gas cap
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2023, 02:54:40 AM »
Quote
surprised you had pressure build up, usually it's vacuum.

Letting air into the tank was apparently no problem, but venting gas fumes was no longer possible. The effect usually happened when i returned from open roads to the city traffic lights after a ride out, with a hot engine and an empty tank. i guess the hot engine did heat up the tank at red lights, and the leftover fuel could evaporate more easily from the dry and warm inner gas tank wall, building pressure.
after filling up the tank (without noticing or paying attention to the venting 'pffft' sound) the phenomenon disappeared, so i initially looked into fuel starvation. it was more likely that the fresh gas was still cool, and there was very little surface for evaporation in the full tank.
It's not a big motorcycle, just a groovy little motorbike...