Author Topic: HONDA's age old head issues....  (Read 4132 times)

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Offline Johnie

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HONDA's age old head issues....
« on: May 11, 2012, 05:19:54 AM »
So I was wondering...the 750 and probably other HM bikes from our era all seem to have the persistant head gasket leak. Is this something that showed up back in the early days or is this just from age? I have seen many threads where guys replace the gasket and it still leaks. Was there some kind of poor design which makes this a difficult thing to fix. Granted, mine weap but not enough to do anything about it. Did Honda do many warranty repairs back in the day on this problem? I guess considering the age of these bikes and the condition we find them in...heck, we are pretty lucky if the only issue is a head weap. I see this thing so many times on the board and inquiring minds want to know the history behind it.
1970 CB750K0 - Candy Ruby Red
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Offline MCRider

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2012, 05:46:57 AM »
So I was wondering...the 750 and probably other HM bikes from our era all seem to have the persistant head gasket leak. Is this something that showed up back in the early days or is this just from age? I have seen many threads where guys replace the gasket and it still leaks. Was there some kind of poor design which makes this a difficult thing to fix. Granted, mine weap but not enough to do anything about it. Did Honda do many warranty repairs back in the day on this problem? I guess considering the age of these bikes and the condition we find them in...heck, we are pretty lucky if the only issue is a head weap. I see this thing so many times on the board and inquiring minds want to know the history behind it.
I first worked in Honda shops the summer of 1970. We were warrantying head gaskets at that time. I bot a new K1 in April 1971 (from my grass cutting money, age 18) I got mine fixed under warranty. So, it was an issue from day 1. I never saw one fixed under warranty that leaked again. I'd say they virtually all leaked, but many not until the warrranty ran out.  By about K3, when they started using the additional 8 big ORings and dowels, it was no longer an issue. So its mainly on the earlier ones.  Care on reassembly, maybe some non hardening goo like Gasgacinch, certainly some heavy duty studs will help, should fix it permanently. Sometimes just retorquing them (I think that's what they did on my K1) will work but you risk stretching the pewter they used for cylinder studs.  ;D

My road racer, and my beloved Phaedrus (50,ooo+ miles as an 888cc), assembled by me, never leaked (from the head gasket). Now the cam  tower studs is a different story...  ;D
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 05:49:04 AM by MCRider »
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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2012, 05:56:00 AM »
So I was wondering...the 750 and probably other HM bikes from our era all seem to have the persistant head gasket leak. Is this something that showed up back in the early days or is this just from age? I have seen many threads where guys replace the gasket and it still leaks. Was there some kind of poor design which makes this a difficult thing to fix. Granted, mine weap but not enough to do anything about it. Did Honda do many warranty repairs back in the day on this problem? I guess considering the age of these bikes and the condition we find them in...heck, we are pretty lucky if the only issue is a head weap. I see this thing so many times on the board and inquiring minds want to know the history behind it.
I first worked in Honda shops the summer of 1970. We were warrantying head gaskets at that time. I bot a new K1 in April 1971 (from my grass cutting money, age 18) I got mine fixed under warranty. So, it was an issue from day 1. I never saw one fixed under warranty that leaked again. I'd say they virtually all leaked, but many not until the warrranty ran out.  By about K3, when they started using the additional 8 big ORings and dowels, it was no longer an issue. So its mainly on the earlier ones.  Care on reassembly, maybe some non hardening goo like Gasgacinch, certainly some heavy duty studs will help, should fix it permanently. Sometimes just retorquing them (I think that's what they did on my K1) will work but you risk stretching the pewter they used for cylinder studs.  ;D

My road racer, and my beloved Phaedrus (50,ooo+ miles as an 888cc), assembled by me, never leaked (from the head gasket). Now the cam  tower studs is a different story...  ;D

You really got a leak from the studs?  MRieck said this could happen and I ordered his kit for my 73 cb750 I guess it was worth the money.  My particular leak was a head that was not perfectly flat.  Resurfacing fixed that.

Offline MCRider

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2012, 06:50:59 AM »
So I was wondering...the 750 and probably other HM bikes from our era all seem to have the persistant head gasket leak. Is this something that showed up back in the early days or is this just from age? I have seen many threads where guys replace the gasket and it still leaks. Was there some kind of poor design which makes this a difficult thing to fix. Granted, mine weap but not enough to do anything about it. Did Honda do many warranty repairs back in the day on this problem? I guess considering the age of these bikes and the condition we find them in...heck, we are pretty lucky if the only issue is a head weap. I see this thing so many times on the board and inquiring minds want to know the history behind it.
I first worked in Honda shops the summer of 1970. We were warrantying head gaskets at that time. I bot a new K1 in April 1971 (from my grass cutting money, age 18) I got mine fixed under warranty. So, it was an issue from day 1. I never saw one fixed under warranty that leaked again. I'd say they virtually all leaked, but many not until the warranty ran out.  By about K3, when they started using the additional 8 big ORings and dowels, it was no longer an issue. So its mainly on the earlier ones.  Care on reassembly, maybe some non hardening goo like Gasgacinch, certainly some heavy duty studs will help, should fix it permanently. Sometimes just retorquing them (I think that's what they did on my K1) will work but you risk stretching the pewter they used for cylinder studs.  ;D

My road racer, and my beloved Phaedrus (50,ooo+ miles as an 888cc), assembled by me, never leaked (from the head gasket). Now the cam  tower studs is a different story...  ;D

You really got a leak from the studs?  MRieck said this could happen and I ordered his kit for my 73 cb750 I guess it was worth the money.  My particular leak was a head that was not perfectly flat.  Resurfacing fixed that.
Yes. The holes for the studs are drilled through to the atmosphere, opening in the spark plug cavities. If the studs are removed, the original factory seal is broken (I've never seen one leak from there that had never had the studs removed. Could happen I suppose.) When the studs are replaced (never use bolts in their place, only the studs) one must use a sealer on the threads. What is Mike's "kit"? My problem with Phaedrus was not only had i removed the studs, i had stripped the threads. Then when i helicoiled the holes I just magnified the problem. At the time i did not know about using a sealer. The helicoils just opened up the holes and gave more opportunity for oil to leak. At idle you could look in between my fins and watch it drip out of the holes.
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Offline Rgconner

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2012, 08:40:04 AM »
Several threads have suggested that doing proper oil lines and closing off the internal oil jets stops the oil leaks.

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Offline MCRider

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2012, 08:43:41 AM »
Several threads have suggested that doing proper oil lines and closing off the internal oil jets stops the oil leaks.
Haven't heard that in years, never seen it done, have you?

I owned a Triumph. External oil lines is going backwards IMO.
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"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2012, 08:51:00 AM »
So I was wondering...the 750 and probably other HM bikes from our era all seem to have the persistant head gasket leak. Is this something that showed up back in the early days or is this just from age? I have seen many threads where guys replace the gasket and it still leaks. Was there some kind of poor design which makes this a difficult thing to fix. Granted, mine weap but not enough to do anything about it. Did Honda do many warranty repairs back in the day on this problem? I guess considering the age of these bikes and the condition we find them in...heck, we are pretty lucky if the only issue is a head weap. I see this thing so many times on the board and inquiring minds want to know the history behind it.
I first worked in Honda shops the summer of 1970. We were warrantying head gaskets at that time. I bot a new K1 in April 1971 (from my grass cutting money, age 18) I got mine fixed under warranty. So, it was an issue from day 1. I never saw one fixed under warranty that leaked again. I'd say they virtually all leaked, but many not until the warranty ran out.  By about K3, when they started using the additional 8 big ORings and dowels, it was no longer an issue. So its mainly on the earlier ones.  Care on reassembly, maybe some non hardening goo like Gasgacinch, certainly some heavy duty studs will help, should fix it permanently. Sometimes just retorquing them (I think that's what they did on my K1) will work but you risk stretching the pewter they used for cylinder studs.  ;D

My road racer, and my beloved Phaedrus (50,ooo+ miles as an 888cc), assembled by me, never leaked (from the head gasket). Now the cam  tower studs is a different story...  ;D

You really got a leak from the studs?  MRieck said this could happen and I ordered his kit for my 73 cb750 I guess it was worth the money.  My particular leak was a head that was not perfectly flat.  Resurfacing fixed that.
Yes. The holes for the studs are drilled through to the atmosphere, opening in the spark plug cavities. If the studs are removed, the original factory seal is broken (I've never seen one leak from there that had never had the studs removed. Could happen I suppose.) When the studs are replaced (never use bolts in their place, only the studs) one must use a sealer on the threads. What is Mike's "kit"? My problem with Phaedrus was not only had i removed the studs, i had stripped the threads. Then when i helicoiled the holes I just magnified the problem. At the time i did not know about using a sealer. The helicoils just opened up the holes and gave more opportunity for oil to leak. At idle you could look in between my fins and watch it drip out of the holes.

In a nut shell its a hand made kit.  Mike does all the machining of heavy duty nuts, and washers to match the heavy duty studs.  This is a short answer I would PM him for a more detailed explanation.

Wow oil dripping between the fins.  I think if that happens to me I will have to sell my collection and buy a new bike.  I am hopeful that all will be well when I start it up over the next week.  Sure looks pretty just sitting there in the frame with nothing attached.  Next engine is going to have some black in it.  Tired of the super shiny silver thing.

Offline MCRider

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2012, 08:59:22 AM »
"In a nut shell its a hand made kit.  Mike does all the machining of heavy duty nuts, and washers to match the heavy duty studs.  This is a short answer I would PM him for a more detailed explanation.

Wow oil dripping between the fins."

My motors back together though not running yet. I used the stock studs with thread sealer. I will definitely check with him on the next motor which I hope to have him port out for me.

Yes it took a while to detect where the oil was coming from as it was between the fins, not at a gasket level. VERY Discouraging. This is the same place a puck leak manifests itself, and that's what i thought it was for a while. Luckily i had an APE frame rail kit and could work on it while in the frame. Never got it completely fixed though as I didn't know what i was doing (like I do now LOL).

New motor should be oil tight.
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Offline Rgconner

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2012, 09:29:21 AM »
Several threads have suggested that doing proper oil lines and closing off the internal oil jets stops the oil leaks.
Haven't heard that in years, never seen it done, have you?

I owned a Triumph. External oil lines is going backwards IMO.

I was looking at this thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=24881.0

Yeah, it is old. But then, nothing has changed about the bike. It still has the engineering issue leaking at the head from the oil jet pressure.

1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Offline MCRider

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2012, 09:37:18 AM »
Several threads have suggested that doing proper oil lines and closing off the internal oil jets stops the oil leaks.
Haven't heard that in years, never seen it done, have you?

I owned a Triumph. External oil lines is going backwards IMO.

I was looking at this thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=24881.0

Yeah, it is old. But then, nothing has changed about the bike. It still has the engineering issue leaking at the head from the oil jet pressure.
Very interesting, thanks. The 500/550 actually leaks worse than the 750 in my observations.

It's really not difficult to make a 750 oiltight, just knowing the weak spots and careful assembly does it.

Don't know if its that way for a 500/550 and maybe the external oil lines are a higher priority. Certainly trick looking.
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Offline Zora

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2012, 03:29:29 PM »
I had a '76 400F that had the head gasket leak. I bought it new but it took 3 or 4 years before it started leaking.

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Offline andrewk

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2012, 03:41:34 PM »
Several threads have suggested that doing proper oil lines and closing off the internal oil jets stops the oil leaks.
Haven't heard that in years, never seen it done, have you?

I owned a Triumph. External oil lines is going backwards IMO.

The japanese do external oil lines way better than the brits ever did.  :P 

I have never seen it done on a SOHC4, but have had several Kawaskis that had external oil lines- always dry and tight.

I very much agree that careful assembly can cure 750 head leaks.  I've done two early K3's now that didn't have the big o-rings, but I did a late K3 last year that did have the dowels.  One thing I know for sure is that you never know what you'll find when you crack one of these open-  there are very few that haven't been messed with at some point anymore!

Offline CrankyOldGuy

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2012, 05:20:59 PM »
My 750K1 must be an odd duck.  In the early 70's I never had an oil leak anywhere after 5 years of fairly hard driving (really abuse looking back).  I religiously changed the oil and filter every 1000 miles .. Castrol 20W50 for the popcorn fiends  ::)

Harry O.

Edit: Not to start a popcorn fight .. but do you think the heavier oil makes a difference?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 05:39:32 PM by CrankyOldGuy »
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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2012, 08:09:20 PM »
My K1 based 836 has no head leaks. I last had the top-end off in '79, and as I recall, I even re-used the head gasket! (not that I recommend it, but I didn't have time to order in a 65 mm gasket.) 
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Offline trueblue

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2012, 04:44:00 AM »
I have had a word with one of the fellas in our engine shop at work in regards to this issue on my 650, his suggestion was to drill the block and head to take a dowel then machine up a dowel with a hole in it to give the o-ring something to seal against and still allow oil flow, so it isn't just sitting there in a little groove.  Something along the lines of this.

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Offline dhall57

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2012, 06:35:21 AM »
Back in the day (late 70's) my last sohc4 was a 1976 CB550. Didn't have a lot of miles on it when I sold it (man now I wish I hadn't done that) maybe 5000 miles. This bike was oil tight and never had any seepage in head gasket area or else where, maybe 750's are more known for this. And being young of course ( I ran the piss out of it) I know the bike was just about brand new, not like the 35 to 40 year old ones we now have. Fast forward almost 40 years, so I was a little surprise when I noticed light oil seepage in that area on my 750's. Like Johnie said, not bad enough to do a major tear down, but for me just enough to be a little bit of a bother :-\
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Offline thrutheframe

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2012, 08:43:20 AM »
Several threads have suggested that doing proper oil lines and closing off the internal oil jets stops the oil leaks.


Im doing a carb job on a 1980 CB750F, they used an external oil line on those bikes.
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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2012, 10:45:46 AM »
My 2 cents: like MCRider, I saw head leaks on the K0 and early K1, which were usually "fixed" by either retorquing the head or installing a new head gasket. One of the prime suspects was under sized O-rings at the 2 up-going oil passages to the head, which would leak with thin oils and wash away the sealant on the rest of the head gasket, then it would dribble forward and show up at the pipe side. Honda's head gaskets were coated with something like rubber cement, but it was oil-soluble.

Today, I more often find the pre-K3 head (and cylinders) need to be flat-ground, which I do during rebuilds. It adds a little cost, but worth it, IMO. Many have warped, probably just from age and metal curing: a flat-grind will restore them for many years. I have the shop mill about 0.005" from the cylinder deck, about twice that from most heads.

This flat-grind solves accidentally another problem that has appeared in many gasket kits (including Vesrah) in the last 5 years or so: undersized O-rings. They are coming with too-thin O-rings for the oil passages. Originally, the ones in the head-deck interface and the case-cylinder interface were 2.0 to 2.1mm thick: today's Honda fiche list them at 1.9mm thick. This is some sort of engineering mis-interpretation, IMO, because the 1.9 is the MINIMUM THICKNESS that is allowed in these spots. The same is happening in other sections of the engine (and other bikes), complicating the problem. Anymore, I end up going to a seal store, buying 2mm thick versions for these rebuilds. They never leak, then, because I have typically squished them almost 0.4mm more from the flat-grind, and added 0.1m more thickness. In the last 2 Vesrah kits I just opened, one of these O-rings is 1.9mm thick (and pink), while the other is 1.6mm thick (too thin, period!).

The same situation is happening with the O-rings being supplied for the oil jets, at least in the last 2 gasket kits I just opened. They are being sent out with 1.6mm thick O-rings instead of 1.9 (this is a 4.0x1.9 on the outside of K0-1 cam bearings, or 6.0x1.9 on the inners, and 6.0x1.9 for both on the later engines). I have switched to my trusty bottle-full of 6x2 and 4x2 O-rings for these, as outlined in the book.

It is also happening on the O-ring for the countershaft bearing oil passage: use a 2mm thick one there for longer-lasting smooth tranny shifts.

The main oil journal in the (split) cases is the 18x3 size, and the last red-colored gasket kit I saw ("Made in Japan") came with this one at 18x1.6mm. This will cause oil leakage from the main oil journal, which lowers the pressure all through the engine and can make it weep right in the center of the cases, at the front. I suspect this "change" was applied because this same O-ring fits the Neutral Switch, but in 18x3 it is difficult to install: however, not using the 18x3 here will make it leak almost from day One. Makes it worth the effort to install the right one!

I don't now if this is Vesrah's (or the other gasket vendors') "fault", as the little O-ring seal packets in these kits are the same ones, regardless of the gasket vendor. They appear to be packaged by someone else, which is likely where the problem originates for all the vendors. I do know the Athena kits have such bad mismatches that I can't make a leak-free engine from them unless I sub all the O-rings, the valve guide seals, and install gasket goo on every gasket. I don't use Athena, since about 2003.

A side note: I have discovered that the 836cc (65mm bore) head gaskets from the eBay vendors' kits (or individual gaskets, which I have also bought) are THICKER than the Honda head gaskets. In contrast, the Wiseco (Cometic) head gaskets are THINNER than Honda's. So, when installing the Wiseco, no changes to O-rings need be done (but you must cut a 5/8" - 14mm hole for each head seal on the later engines, thru those Cometic gaskets), but when installing the other gaskets, you must use at least a 2mm thick O-ring at the oil feed passages to avoid leaks.

BTW: the Cometic head gaskets crush about 0.5mm to a final 1.0mm thickness at 20 ft-lbs on HD studs, while the eBay 65mm head gaskets crush to 1.10mm thick under the same conditions, quite reliably. Honda's head gasket also crushes to 1.0 to 1.05mm on standard-bore engines with the stock studs and 17.5 ft-lbs torque. It is these tiny difference that make a dry (or not) engine at these O-rings, so think them thru when doing your reassembly!  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2012, 12:06:48 PM »
Thanks Mark............just in time to check out the specs in the Cycle X gasket kits for my next rebuild of an F0 motor.

My sandcast motor never leaked.......but it was rebuilt twice by HONDA after the famous chain-through-case followed by the replacement case failure at the counter-shaft bearing.
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Re: HONDA's age old head issues....
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2012, 01:24:11 PM »
Thanks Mark............just in time to check out the specs in the Cycle X gasket kits for my next rebuild of an F0 motor.

My sandcast motor never leaked.......but it was rebuilt twice by HONDA after the famous chain-through-case followed by the replacement case failure at the counter-shaft bearing.

Yeah, those replacement cases: I think they were the ones that failed muster for production! The web around the bearing was not thick enough, and often was bored too big, letting the bearing move.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com