Author Topic: Ready for a fire sale  (Read 4943 times)

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Offline lucky

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Re: Ready for a fire sale
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2012, 08:11:09 AM »
I would like to add that going back over this story several times this hint is very powerful.

QUOTE from OP:
"but if you try to turn the throttle, it instantly dies."

That is almost always too lean problem if fully warmed up.
This configuration is going to take a #42 or #40 idle jet.

The stock #35 or even #38 will not work, with this configuration, even if the mixture screw is turned out.
It has been tried by at least two other forum members and would not work on these 1978 carbs. -LUCKY
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 08:13:10 AM by lucky »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Ready for a fire sale
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2012, 10:55:41 AM »
I would like to add that going back over this story several times this hint is very powerful.

QUOTE from OP:
"but if you try to turn the throttle, it instantly dies."

That is almost always too lean problem if fully warmed up.
This configuration is going to take a #42 or #40 idle jet.

The stock #35 or even #38 will not work, with this configuration, even if the mixture screw is turned out.
It has been tried by at least two other forum members and would not work on these 1978 carbs. -LUCKY

You seem to be arguing that the original bike would not run well as driven off the showroom floor.  I'm sorry, but I cannot believe that.
The original jets and adjustments were just fine when new.  If that same configuration today is not working, then something is broken, or not meeting "as new" spec.

The Shop manual for the PD carbs, describes tuning each IMS for maximum rpm at idle speed.  This corresponds to the leanest setting at idle.  The accelerator pump was provided to compensate for this lean mixture, as when the throttle is twisted, it causes the metering jets to flow less, while more air is available to flow through the carbs.

The accelerator pump shooting raw fuel into the inlets should pretty much compensate for any lean mixture the pilot jets and IMS at set for, including if the pilot jets are plugged solid. (No, it won't hold idle with the pilots plugged.  But, it will dang sure accelerate with that strong shot of gas entering the carb throats and the slides open.)

For the accel pump test, it is not enough to simply observe fuel coming from the  squirters, it matters a great deal HOW MUCH is coming from the squirters.
I had them "working" on my 77 CB750F.  And fuel was getting pumped.  However, I had a check valve that was leaking which reduces pressure, and the diaphragm hole in the Mickey mouse ears wear swelled/smashed nearly shut.  Fixing the valve and passage holes, changed (increased) the volume they shot into the carb throats.  Those squirter posts shot a steady stream at least six inches after proper repair, and totally cured throttle twist acceleration.  Even later when the pilot jets plugged again and it would not idle, if you could catch it before the RPM dropped below 800, a throttle twist would still rev the engine.

QUOTE from OP:
"but if you try to turn the throttle, it instantly dies."

That is almost always too lean problem if fully warmed up.
This configuration is going to take a #42 or #40 idle jet.

While true that twisting the throttle causes a lean A/F mixture, that is exactly what the accelerator pumps are supposed to cure on the PD style carbs.

Ideally, you would want idle speed to be >AT< stoichiometric.  But then, any slide opening would go over lean and produce very weak to no power.  The accel pump overcomes this if operating correctly.

As to using a larger pilot jet, this actually IS true to obtain idle pickup with non-accelerator pump carbs.  Mechanical slide carbs must be tuned over rich at idle, so that when the slides are opened, the mixture remains in the combustion range while more air and less vacuum are present in the carb throats.

There are other things to consider within the carb design.  But, the details must be framed about the specific carbs in question and not applied to all carbs in general.
Factors to consider:
How far away is the fuel from the carb throat fuel entry point?  (Actual float bowl fuel level?.  This effects how easy it is to get fuel into the carb throats.)
What is the fuel volume/weight of the emulsion tube chamber contents?  (I don't expect many readers will understand the significance of this.  But, a carb designer must, and a carb alterer, should.)

Cheers,
 


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Ready for a fire sale
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2012, 11:12:35 AM »
I vote for another carb cleaning with compressed air in all orifices.
That and run the spray test at the carb boots.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline lucky

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Re: Ready for a fire sale
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 11:27:15 AM »
HOLD ON...... I think I see the confusion here. 8)

He said he had 4 into 4 exhaust system.
There are aftermarket 4 into 4 exhaust systems right?

He did not say it is the stock exhaust system.

Is it the stock exhaust system??????

Offline lucky

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Re: Ready for a fire sale
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2012, 11:29:53 AM »
I vote for another carb cleaning with compressed air in all orifices.
That and run the spray test at the carb boots.

Yes....agreed - pump action and nozzles need to have a visual function test.

Offline Plummer

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Re: Ready for a fire sale
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2012, 03:24:28 PM »
Start it , spray carb cleaner around the boots ,engine side ! If it effects it , you have a leak ! start looking for new ones ! scratch that , I looked for 3 weeks "78" ! I found some used wintergreened ones ! Also new clamps !
Every Day Above Ground Is A Good One !!!!!

Offline vistirus

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Re: Ready for a fire sale
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2012, 08:50:10 PM »
Thanks to everyone for the great response to the questions about my starting problems.  I haven't had much time to work on the bike. I did take a shot and start the bike, with the choke pulled out all the way and the idle thumbscrew turned in 3-4 turns after touching the arm it goes against. Like before, it started at 4,000 rpm (I just knew the piston rods were going to explode through the case) and I was determined to let it warm up. Wound up nursing the choke slowly in until, after 10 minutes, I was able to take the thumbscrew and adjust the idle, with the choke now fully in, to about 1100-1200 rpm. It sat there and idled and I could advance the throttle, in short blips or up to high rpm's, with no problems. I thought, what the heck, so I knocked it off the center stand, dropped  it into first and rode around the  neighborhood.  First time on the road in 25 years and I remembered how much fun it was. Pulled it back in the garage and it still idled OK.  After shutdown, though, I smelled fuel. Pulled the tank and saw gas leaking around the three rubber tubes that connect the carbs and I think this is where fuel would be pushed by the accelerator pump.( BTW, new pump installed when I had the carbs apart. And the arm was adjusted so it just kissed the pump rod and fuel squirted out in all four carbs.) These tubes that were leaking are new, but I think an incorrect size. A little bigger then factory (I saved those) and wouldn't clamp tight. But I still thought it was close enough that it wouldn't leak. Guess I was wrong. I put the factory tubes back on, but haven't started it yet. Anyway, could these tubes leaking have affected the starting in any way? I would like to put new tubing on the bike, but this was the closest in size I could find. The Honda dealer is quite a ways from me.  And the questions about jet size - all I can say is they are the jets that were in there when it rolled out of the dealership in 1978. Everything on the bike (except for the handlebars - had to go a little higher, I was bent over too far)is factory stock. What ever baffles, jets, springs, etc. the guys in Japan put in the bike back then are what is in it now.
Another quick question, I have been very lucky with electrics on this bike. Everything has worked (hi/lo beam, all the lights, turn signals still go beep-beep-beep, front and rear brake light switches) except for the horn. Can I test this by running wires from the horn terminals to the battery? Would give me a hint about either the horn or the switch being bad. I am REALLY lost when it comes to electrics.
Again, thanks to every one for all the advice. Don't know if I would have attempted this if I hadn't have found this site.
Vistirus
Dripping Springs,  Texas

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Ready for a fire sale
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2012, 09:02:00 PM »
vistirus,
     I had a set of 3 OEM accel.pump tubes that I just sent to a member in England a few months ago.I know they're NLA through Honda,but you'll find the correct size(or undersize) that'll fit your application.The sohc4 members here will help !  ;)
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Ready for a fire sale
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2012, 12:22:34 AM »
Vistirus,
Do yourself a favor and remove the fuses, clean and polish where they contact the fuse ends.  Polish the fuses, too.  This will save you from melting fuses and possibly stranding you out on the highway when the fuse overheats and parts (= dead bike).

The interlink accelerator pump tubes should be 3.5mm I.D.

Are you using ethanol blended fuel?

With an 8500 red line, why would you worry about 4000 RPM?  Regardless, if you really find that objectionable, then find the fast idle speed adjust screw, and back that off a bit to reduce fast idle speed.  I did.

The horn button contact itself just might be oxidized and repeated pressing might wear through the oxidation.
Do you have dual horns as on the F model?
Anyway, after exercising the horn button a few cycles. Tap on the horn itself while depressing the horn button. It may come back to life and there is another contact inside the horn that can oxidize.  Tapping may break through the surface film.  If no joy, other avenues can be investigated.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Ready for a fire sale
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2012, 07:23:53 AM »
I vote for another carb cleaning with compressed air in all orifices.
That and run the spray test at the carb boots.

Yes....agreed - pump action and nozzles need to have a visual function test.

You misunderstood me, read Plummer's comment. That is what I meant.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Ready for a fire sale
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2012, 08:46:53 AM »
Are you still going to have the "fire sale" ? w/ those accel. tubes leaking it could indeed get fired up in the wrong way.  :o
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.