Topic: Re: Oil pan plug, hand-tighten or correct torque? NEW: oil pan bolts, same ques?

[Mercutiojb]

 A few questions..

Just changed the oil on my 77 supersport.  Went to tighten the crankcase oil plug (to the correct torque), and I believe I may have busted the threads in the pan.  The plug seems to thread in and out just fine, but never really 'tightens'.  It gets all the way to the pan, then just sort of... spins.  If I were to keep spinning it, it seems to get harder, then easier, depending on how far around it is spun.

So, it looks like I'll need a new pan? (anyone have one for cheap?) 

My question is, should I not attempt to use the correct torque setting? Should I just do hand tight plus a little extra? I've seen both recommendations in other threads here, but I'm not sure. 

Also, can something like a lock washer be used in addition to the crush washer to keep the bolt from coming out?

Follow-up question - I've heard some people have found the crush washers for much cheaper at fastener stores.  What size would I need, and what should I be asking for?

[mono]

from scouring the forums i have seen a number of posts about people putting the correct torque on something only to have it break.  i'm interested in the answers on this also.

when i changed my oil last summer after getting my bike, i tightened it by hand until it was tight, then gave it an extra nudge.  didn't leak a drop.  that said, maybe i just got lucky and that was the right torque amount. *shrug*

[LesterPiglet]

I use hand torque only, I've stripped too many threads on my bike. I think 35 years of undoing and redoing bolts is going to weaken something.

[MCRider]

I thought I posted here a moment ago, but it didn't take so here it is again.

My chart say 25 to 28 ft lbs on a drain bolt! No Way!

I have a code about crushables: like drain plugs, spark plugs, oil filter bolts, tappet covers, etc, with crushable washers: hand tighten then a good umph with a 6 inch wrench, you should feel the washer give, then STOP!  If it leaks, tighten a bit more till it stops.

You may find a self tapping drain plug from auto store. They use them when they strip a car oil pan.

You may remove your pan and repair the thread.

You can get crushable drain washers anywhere, just use metric so they fit nice. I buy from OEM, 10 at a time. Use a new one each time. The one in question is 12mm. At $1.48 you can do better, though that wouldn't stop me. Just look around for a different application that uses 12mm crush washer.

[2wheels]

Hand tight , use a 3/8 drive ratchet . Which normally have a short handle.

I stipped mine last year doing the same as you. 
I found a 14 mm thread plug.  Then had a local guy drill and tap the hole for my new plug.  Worked fine.   Cost 10 dollars total.
I did buy a new pan gasket but did not need it.

[MCRider]

This is a little better:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&tok=KeVSysPMViUM_fwx9Oi9DQ&ds=pr&pq=drain+plug+washers&cp=15&gs_id=1o&xhr=t&q=motorcycle+oil+drain+plug+washers&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&rlz=1I7ADFA_enUS458&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1344&bih=710&wrapid=tljp1335805328467228&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=8203990796075502654&sa=X&ei=r8WeT5SxKJPygge45fz3Dg&sqi=2&ved=0CIwBEPMCMAQ#

[Hinomaru]

Besides stripping the threads in the oil pan, over-torqueing the drain bolt can also cause a cracked pan.

This always results in a undesirable oil leak.

[Mercutiojb]

I'm wondering if it's not cracked as well.  I hate to have to pull the pan, but if I have to, I have to.

It seems odd though, or maybe I've just never seen this before.  I've never seen a bolt that threaded in and out correctly, but just didn't tighten.  It seems to be holding at the moment, but I fear that vibration will shake it loose so I'm guessing the bike will be un-ridable until it's fixed?

[Mercutiojb]

Thanks for this, but don't I need a washer with a 12mm I.D. instead of 10mm?

This is a little better:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&tok=KeVSysPMViUM_fwx9Oi9DQ&ds=pr&pq=drain+plug+washers&cp=15&gs_id=1o&xhr=t&q=motorcycle+oil+drain+plug+washers&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&rlz=1I7ADFA_enUS458&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1344&bih=710&wrapid=tljp1335805328467228&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=8203990796075502654&sa=X&ei=r8WeT5SxKJPygge45fz3Dg&sqi=2&ved=0CIwBEPMCMAQ#

[Dimitri13]

I stripped mine torquing it to.. 14ft/lbs or something. Tried replacing it with an oversized drain plug, only to have that not work well. I ended up replacing the oil pan for like $25 shipped from ebay. The best thing was that it had no chipped fins (mine had a small chip), and it was in overall better condition.

[LesterPiglet]

I'm wondering if it's not cracked as well.  I hate to have to pull the pan, but if I have to, I have to.

It seems odd though, or maybe I've just never seen this before.  I've never seen a bolt that threaded in and out correctly, but just didn't tighten.  It seems to be holding at the moment, but I fear that vibration will shake it loose so I'm guessing the bike will be un-ridable until it's fixed?

Cheap as I am, I would epoxy it until you get a permanent fix arranged.

[Duke McDukiedook]

hand tighten.

[Mercutiojb]

I think I may end up doing just that!

I stripped mine torquing it to.. 14ft/lbs or something. Tried replacing it with an oversized drain plug, only to have that not work well. I ended up replacing the oil pan for like $25 shipped from ebay. The best thing was that it had no chipped fins (mine had a small chip), and it was in overall better condition.

[Mercutiojb]

As long as I can get the plug to stay in, I wouldn't mind!

I'm wondering if it's not cracked as well.  I hate to have to pull the pan, but if I have to, I have to.

It seems odd though, or maybe I've just never seen this before.  I've never seen a bolt that threaded in and out correctly, but just didn't tighten.  It seems to be holding at the moment, but I fear that vibration will shake it loose so I'm guessing the bike will be un-ridable until it's fixed?

Cheap as I am, I would epoxy it until you get a permanent fix arranged.

[LesterPiglet]

Clean it up, wrap some plumbers tape around the threads and epoxy it.

[Mercutiojb]

As in "you're never getting this bolt out again after you epoxy it in"?  Just want to make sure I'm not missing something 

Clean it up, wrap some plumbers tape around the threads and epoxy it.

[LesterPiglet]

Epoxy will easily chip off, I've done it before. I mean to epoxy around the area once the bolt is inserted.

[MCRider]

I'm wondering if it's not cracked as well.  I hate to have to pull the pan, but if I have to, I have to.

It seems odd though, or maybe I've just never seen this before.  I've never seen a bolt that threaded in and out correctly, but just didn't tighten.  It seems to be holding at the moment, but I fear that vibration will shake it loose so I'm guessing the bike will be un-ridable until it's fixed?

There is just enough thread left in the aluminum to fool you. But don't let it. It won't stay. I'll second my idea on the self threading repair drain bolt from auto land. They may not have one close enough to your size, but worth a phone call or trip if close.

[MCRider]

Like this: (scroll down)
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/repairinfo/common/repairInfoMain.jsp?targetPage=productsHowToInspect&leftNavPage=productsHowTo&pageId=%090996b43f80a011f7&subtitle=replace

[Mercutiojb]

I'll check this out first!

I'm wondering if it's not cracked as well.  I hate to have to pull the pan, but if I have to, I have to.

It seems odd though, or maybe I've just never seen this before.  I've never seen a bolt that threaded in and out correctly, but just didn't tighten.  It seems to be holding at the moment, but I fear that vibration will shake it loose so I'm guessing the bike will be un-ridable until it's fixed?

There is just enough thread left in the aluminum to fool you. But don't let it. It won't stay. I'll second my idea on the self threading repair drain bolt from auto land. They may not have one close enough to your size, but worth a phone call or trip if close.

[MCRider]

This discussion made me read up on self tapping plugs. Many threads from other motorsports forums, all with good feedback. Plug comes in .5 mm increments so you'd get a 12.5.

Some of them are piggy back. That is they have an actual but smaller drainplug in the center. So onceyou get the bigger portion in you never remove it. Just pull the center smaller plug to drain with.

Caution: I've never used these or known anyoone who has. i just know they are out thre.

[Mercutiojb]

Anyone have an idea on the original thread pitch of the plug?

[MCRider]

Anyone have an idea on the original thread pitch of the plug?

I will in a minute.

12mm x 1.5

[Mercutiojb]

Thanks for all the help MCRider!

Anyone have an idea on the original thread pitch of the plug?

I will in a minute.

12mm x 1.5

[lone*X]

The idea of a piggy back plug is a good one.  You would then have steel drain plug in steel threads.  Would not have to stress the aluminum pan anymore.  Sort of like doing a helicoil.

[lucky]

Does the bolt have the aluminum washer on it?

If not what is happening is the bolt goes up into the pan and then goes past the threaded part because the washer is missing. Just a possibility.

[lucky]

Take the pan off and fix it right!!!
Chhheeeeesssshhhh!!!!

[MCRider]

The pan is broken (stripped). One can analyze one's options to fix it. Why is a helicoil more right than a self tapping plug? I've seen helicoils go dreadfully wrong.

The car guys don't think twice about using a self tapping plug. Are they all wrong?

The OP may opt to remove it and do a thread repair.  He may put a ST plug in so he can ride and wait till he can score a new pan off eBay. Or they may not even make the appropriate ST plug for the application.

My point is, there are many "right" ways to fix this.

Its time to go riding. Short season in Mn.

[Mercutiojb]

I did find a piggy back plug, and I can post a reply here when I've seen if it will work or not.  I agree with MCRider in that these are used on cars all the time, so for a temporary solution, it's at least worth a shot.  If it doesn't work, I'm no worse off.  I need a new pan either way.

If it works, I'll wait for a new pan at a good price, and fit it when I can.

[MCRider]

I did find a piggy back plug, and I can post a reply here when I've seen if it will work or not.  I agree with MCRider in that these are used on cars all the time, so for a temporary solution, it's at least worth a shot.  If it doesn't work, I'm no worse off.  I need a new pan either way.

If it works, I'll wait for a new pan at a good price, and fit it when I can.

In my searching on the subject, i found a forum on the HondaCB1.org site, where an individual had stripped their pan. They too found a piggyback plug and reported on its install. They threaded it in without the washer till it almost seated. Then removed it. A small amount of shavings were trapped in the interior of the plug. It was evidently designed to do that. He cleaned the plug reinserted with the washer, and went riding.

Good luck!

[Mercutiojb]

Well, the plan went like this:

No one in town carried a piggy back M12x1.5 self tapping plug.  From my research, it seems that most people have been successful using a M12x1.75 self tapping plug.  No one in town carries a M12x1.75 piggyback, but I could get a 'standard' style oversize plug (Oil-Tite! brand)  The plan was to use this until the next oil change, when I would replace it with a piggyback style plug.

The good news: The self tapping plug seems reasonably easy to use.  I did as suggested on this forum.  I used thread cutting oil (though I wonder if a heavier grease would have been better?) and threaded it in in stages.  I pulled the plug back out, cleaned any shavings off the threads, re-oiled, and continued on.

The bad news: When I had the plug nearly in, I heard a distinct 'snap'.  I stopped, checked, and now have a large crack where the plug goes in.  I believe it may have been slightly cracked before, but this was too much for it. 

So, I believe the self tapping plug may be a good temporary solution if the pan is confirmed to not be cracked.  But, sadly, it didn't work for me.

Sigh!  I feel like I'm breaking more things than I'm fixing!  I guess I'm on the hunt for a new oil pan now.  I hear the oil pan mounting bolts can be iffy as well, any suggestions? Should they be hand tightened or torqued to spec?

[MCRider]

Sorry about that. 

[Deltarider]

Tip: use a torque wrench only where it really matters (head).
For the rest use your sense and keep your skills.

[LesterPiglet]

Get that crack welded up.