Author Topic: Reg/rectifier question (Read 24604 times)

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 02, 2012, 10:53:21 AM »

I like the stock regulator as it's the kindest devise possible when teamed-up with the field coil/stator/battery. With a decent battery on the bike, after the start button has been used and the bike is running, the regulator is only 'clicked' to 1/2 power to restore the battery to full charge. After a few miles of running, the battery voltage will be high enough to 'click' the regulator to the 'OFF' position. This is the very best part about the whole shebang.... the battery has time to rest ( bubble down, as it were ) AND the field coil/stator has time to cool too ! Then the cycle starts over @ 1/2 power being applied to the field..... full power mode would only happen if your loom connections are 'sh***y and the reg. is being told the battery voltage is low ( falsely ) or you left the ign. and headlight on and ran the battery down..... or you have exceeded the charging capacity of the alt. with 'add-on' stuff ( usually in combo with poor electrical connections ) and caused the battery to deplete......

Mtmooradian · « **Reply #26 on:** May 02, 2012, 11:56:44 AM »

More research I do, I'm finding that the stock reg is the way to go.
And with the li/ion battery running the shunt reg doesn't sound like a great idea.

crazypj · « **Reply #27 on:** May 03, 2012, 10:02:41 AM »

Old style mechanical regulator has a maximum frequency around 60 htz and literally switches 12v to field coil on and off.
Trasnsistorised regulator switches 200+htz but is still basically turning on and off
Latest style all electronic regulators send varying voltage to field coils and limit voltage production by modifying magnetic field.
With smaller batteries on bikes, it's possible to get voltage spikes in sync with electronic systems (fuel injection, ignition, sensors, etc)
Fully digital systems could have problems which is the main reason modern sport bikes switched to permanent magnet generators.
If your keeping points or early style electronic triggered ignition, stock reg is fine.
If you switch to a modern programmable digital system you will need stock size battery plus a better regulator

Mtmooradian · « **Reply #28 on:** May 03, 2012, 12:59:12 PM »

Thank you

GammaFlat · « **Reply #29 on:** May 12, 2012, 07:44:33 PM »

Quote from: scottly on May 02, 2012, 10:42:53 AM

Quote from: GammaFlat on May 01, 2012, 08:38:39 PM
You can use a Ford pickup truck regulator (part number is in PinHead's thread) but it acts as a "shunt" regulator instead of controlling how much you "excite" your alternator like the regulator from Honda (those guys were smart).
This is not correct. The Ford regulator controls the field coil. It is not a shunt regulator.

Thanks for the clarification Scottly. Here's an exploded diagram of the Ford regulator before it went solid state: http://www.fordification.com/tech/images/schematics/voltageregulator.jpg As Scottly says, it does indeed control the field coil. Now I'm kind of curious about the resistance levels (comparatively with the Honda unit) and the Ford solid state unit is not "adjustable" or tune-able like the Honda unit. Not a biggie at all.... more like a nice to know.

The new over the counter version is solid state (unlike the above diagram) and emulates the older mechanical version's function (I assume). I think Scottly recently just posted a schematic of the older style regulator in the PinHead thread. Is the old mechanical version of the Ford regulator available?

Did anybody notice how Scottly did not bludgeon me and/or my remarks? He simply clarified/corrected in a straightforward way. You gotta love this place.

Thanks Scottly!

crazypj · « **Reply #30 on:** May 12, 2012, 08:25:59 PM »

Interesting about Ford regulator, could come in handy.
It should vary voltage to field coil which will improve charging at all rpm
Got a part number/price for them?

grcamna2 · « **Reply #31 on:** May 12, 2012, 08:27:11 PM »

+1 Gamma on not being Bludgeoned

We're restoring bikes and attitudes.

crazypj · « **Reply #32 on:** May 12, 2012, 08:31:58 PM »

I only bludgeon people who deserve it

scottly · « **Reply #33 on:** May 12, 2012, 10:07:49 PM »

Quote from: crazypj on May 12, 2012, 08:25:59 PM

Interesting about Ford regulator, could come in handy.
It should vary voltage to field coil which will improve charging at all rpm
Got a part number/price for them?

I used a vr730, branded Durolast, from Autozone. $15.99, plus tax, a year ago.

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #34 on:** May 13, 2012, 07:07:45 AM »

I believe the opposite is true RT.... the bike runs off the battery and the alt. works to keep the battery up to capacity. If the bike is 'overloaded' with add-on, mods., then the battery will deplete even with the alt. working 'flat-out'

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #35 on:** May 13, 2012, 01:09:07 PM »

I used to think that the bike ran off the alternator too

... until I actually learned how the charging system on our SOHC's work

.... go ahead and use a 'tiny' battery if you want a 5 mile riding radius

Rgconner · « **Reply #36 on:** May 13, 2012, 05:39:36 PM »

Quote from: rotortiller on May 13, 2012, 01:47:35 AM

Quote
After a few miles of running, the battery voltage will be high enough to 'click' the regulator to the 'OFF' position.

How is that possible if the system is tuned to 14.5 volts using a typical battery that won't naturally hold that voltage. Basically the electrical power supply on the bike is the 14.5 volt alternator with the battery only going along for the ride. Now if the rpm drops enough and the system can't keep up, then the battery becomes the power supply assist for the bike, however the alternator still should be contributing to the load during a motorcycle ride at lower road speeds.

Maybe I'm incorrect but that is how I understood it.

rt

You can read the spec in the fine manual, available free for download from the FAQ pages:

at 1K idle, it is only 12 volts., and 2K it is 12.4, just barely breaking even.

So real charging is over 2K, on a perfect spec system.

crazypj · « **Reply #37 on:** May 13, 2012, 06:10:05 PM »

That chart shows it puts out max charge at 1,000 rpm (6.5 amps)
when regulator cuts in, the charge rate drops and voltage increases to max of 14.5.
Batteries still charge with amps and not volts
Check your battery charger, it gives output amps not output volts (no load voltage is usually substantially more than 12V, I've measured around 16.5v)

TwoTired · « **Reply #38 on:** May 13, 2012, 06:14:31 PM »

Quote from: Rgconner on May 13, 2012, 05:39:36 PM

You can read the spec in the fine manual, available free for download from the FAQ pages:

at 1K idle, it is only 12 volts., and 2K it is 12.4, just barely breaking even.

So real charging is over 2K, on a perfect spec system.

This might be a good time to point out a manual printing error, where they omitted the minus sign for the amps in the 1000 RPM column. And, they swapped the Day and Night labels. At the time, there was a lighting switch, which differentiated Day from Night riding. There is more current loading with lighting on than with lighting off, which effects what the battery voltage can rise/or fall to depending on whether the alternator is making more power than is be consumed by the bike, or less. When it makes less, the battery voltage falls as it drains, trying to make up for the alternators lack of power.

Cheers,

crazypj · « **Reply #39 on:** May 13, 2012, 06:40:47 PM »

I forgot to put question mark at end of sentence

crazypj · « **Reply #40 on:** May 13, 2012, 08:20:52 PM »

Quote from: rotortiller on May 13, 2012, 08:02:10 PM

You guys didn't even read my post on the topic, you just want to argue is how I see it.

rt

We read it, but, we just want to argue like a bunch of kids

Rgconner · « **Reply #41 on:** May 13, 2012, 08:33:41 PM »

Quote from: rotortiller on May 13, 2012, 08:02:10 PM

You guys didn't even read my post on the topic, you just want to argue is how I see it. This is what I replied to with the second quote.

Quote
After a few miles of running, the battery voltage will be high enough to 'click' the regulator to the 'OFF' position.

Quote
Basically the electrical power supply on the bike is the 14.5 volt alternator with the battery only going along for the ride. Now if the rpm drops enough and the system can't keep up, then the battery becomes the power supply assist for the bike, however the alternator still should be contributing to the load during a motorcycle ride at lower road speeds.

Basically when the voltage is at 14.5 the charging system is up to snuff, so the alternator is supplying the power for the bike at that time. Clear now? The reg does not click off as it is supplying a voltage above battery value.

rt

Yeah, but you are not right, that is what we are trying to tell you.

The battery runs the electrical system. As it's voltage drops, the alternator kicks back in to top it off.

Put a multi-meter across the battery, watch the voltage and start the bike. If you want, take off the cover of the regulator.

Run the bike at 2.5Kish. A fan might be a good idea. =)

As the voltage trickles down (likely the case after starting it with the starter) the electromagnet coil can't keep the armature down, and the points open. That takes the resistor out of circuit and the alternator makes power.

The voltage creeps up and the electromagnet takes over again, closing the points and putting the resistor in circuit. The alternator then produces less power, not enough to charge the battery and the battery supports the electrical system.

It will cycle through that process as the engine runs, regardless if it is doing 1K or 9K. It produces more AMPS as the RPMs go up past about 4K, but not more volts. A min of 13.5 volts is required to charge, more than ~14.5 will cause excessive gassing.

In a slower speed ride with idling at lights, the battery will tend to drain, per the chart, taking into consideration TT's clarification on the printing error. Put the lights on and it is even worse.

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #42 on:** May 13, 2012, 08:52:55 PM »

' Put the lights on and it's even worse'.... agrred, but onlt if ya putz around @ idle engine speeds....
Get over it, the stock lead/acid battery and energized field set-up is ideal for the low tech. batteries our bikes call for and optimises their life with the stock designed regulator... sorry can't beat it over electronics... period.... electronic regulators have one major flaw when installed in our SOHC's, they could care less about battery longevity.... good luck with 2 years due to 'boiling'

... and several top-ups ...

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #43 on:** May 13, 2012, 09:02:27 PM »

Rototiller.... the correct scenario is that the battery reaches full charge and it's voltage 'overcomes' the electromagnet bias in the regulator and 'clicks' the field coil to 'off'.. i.e., no power going to the field coil = no charging, not needed until the battery voltage ( being depleted by the headlight/ ignition/ taillight ) reduces enough to allow the regulator to'click' on again and allow charging voltage/watts to fill-up the battery... this is the cycle that happens on thousands of SOHC Honda's on tyhe road every day

Rgconner · « **Reply #44 on:** May 13, 2012, 09:09:08 PM »

Quote from: Spanner 1 on May 13, 2012, 08:52:55 PM

Get over it, the stock lead/acid battery and energized field set-up is ideal for the low tech. batteries our bikes call for and optimises their life with the stock designed regulator... sorry can't beat it over electronics... period.... electronic regulators have one major flaw when installed in our SOHC's, they could care less about battery longevity.... good luck with 2 years due to 'boiling' ... and several top-ups ...

I am not suggesting anyone fix anything, nor did I imply it needed fixing. I am quite aware of the limitations and nature of the beast I ride and mine is completely stock. If the regulator failed, I would try to find a used one from someone that "upgraded". Update: I should point out that TwoTired got me to that point when I was considering a solid state regulator/rectifier. And I lied about "complete stock", I did do the Hondaman ignition. But the charging system is completely stock.

Just like my now original replacement side covers came from someone that chopped their bike... just like some people have newer airboxes from a podder "upgrading"... I am sure there are more examples out there.

I do run into the charging problem fairly frequently when I go out with a riding club with the Honda and I am forced to cut through Sacramento rather than go on the freeway. The freeway has just too much debris (like thrown truck treads or parts of pallets), construction/repair, and bad (drunk) drivers for me to risk the freeway in the dark.

25 to 35mph and frequent red lights through mid-town will put the hurt on the battery.

Get home, check the voltage. If is it low, attach to trickle charger.

Done.

Rgconner · « **Reply #45 on:** May 13, 2012, 09:17:04 PM »

Quote from: Spanner 1 on May 13, 2012, 09:02:27 PM

Rototiller.... the correct scenario is that the battery reaches full charge and it's voltage 'overcomes' the electromagnet bias in the regulator and 'clicks' the field coil to 'off'.. i.e., no power going to the field coil = no charging, not needed until the battery voltage ( being depleted by the headlight/ ignition/ taillight ) reduces enough to allow the regulator to'click' on again and allow charging voltage/watts to fill-up the battery... this is the cycle that happens on thousands of SOHC Honda's on tyhe road every day

That is not what the manual says, it says a 10 ohm resistor is put into circuit and "The current to the field coil is thus reduced to 0.7A and, consequently, a lower voltage is produced by the generator, limiting the amount of charge to the battery".

It still is energized, just not very much. 12v == 1.7A, so it would be lower than that.

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #46 on:** May 13, 2012, 09:20:44 PM »

No diss intended, Rg... agree with the low rpm scenario.... i know the 550 alt. does not compare to the ( more familiar for me) 750 alt..... the batt. would run down a lot sooner @ low rpms

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #47 on:** May 13, 2012, 09:28:58 PM »

Rg... if the alt. could never overcome the demand of the battery to be charged and the demand of the ign./headlight/ taillight/ turnsignals use... then the battery will deplete and the bike will stop dead..( fill in the miles)... as the alt. will be unable to keep the battery charged... seewhatimean ?

So, YES the charging does shut off when the regulator is told by the battery that it is fully charged, otherwise every SOHC bike would have a limited range or running before dead battery

The stock regulator has 3 modes ; On 'full' power, On 1/2 power and Off.... that's it no other options.

scottly · « **Reply #48 on:** May 13, 2012, 09:47:36 PM »

Quote from: Spanner 1 on May 13, 2012, 01:09:07 PM

. go ahead and use a 'tiny' battery if you want a 5 mile riding radius

Uh, Ray, I've put over 1200 relay miles on my "tiny" battery, including 650 this year with the $15.99 regulator.

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #49 on:** May 13, 2012, 10:00:19 PM »

Exactly Scottly..... if ya hadn't done 1000 miles it all would have failed... try putzing around town, see how it lasts.... if the battery capacity is below the stock demand 'at average rpm/ mileage ' the battery will die...
somebody made these calculations, wasn't me !!

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Author Topic: Reg/rectifier question (Read 24604 times)