Topic: Custom forward controls and combining front brake with rear pedal??? 75' CB750

[phil71]

Ok, just to play devil's advocate... neither the gold wing nor the guzzi have ONLY an integrated brake, and in fact, the design of both setups pretty much says out loud that an integrated brake alone is not good enough for all stopping situations. I'd lay even money that the integrated brake, when applied, is rear-heavy, and that would make sense. For more control in panic or very hard braking situations, they provide the front control. This is the only way to insure that type of control would be safe for all riding conditions.
  That said, most guys who have been riding long enough say that they get out of more trouble with the throttle than the brake anyway..

[Retro Rocket]

  That said, most guys who have been riding long enough say that they get out of more trouble with the throttle than the brake anyway..

I would say that most guys that have ridden long enough would have experienced both, throttle won't save sh1t when a truck, bus or car pulls out in front of you or you've been pushed of the road by some idiot in a car that "didn't see you" and you are trying to avoid hitting something solid, saying more get out of trouble with the throttle is just a statement based on nothing... My experience tells me both happen all the time...

[phil71]

Mine too, and you're telling this guy to go 1-lever ?!

[Retro Rocket]

Mine too, and you're telling this guy to go 1-lever ?!

No, i'm not telling him to do 1 lever, i am just saying to the naysayers that dual braking systems have been around for a long time and i see no reason that it can't be converted to work on any bike. I just like seeing guys think outside the box, and if this guy is building a cruiser and not a performance orientated bike i think its doable, even a 1 lever set up will work, but it will be hard to work out the balance, {adjustable balancer needed}  but either way i think its doable....

[phil71]

I'd think an adjustable proportioning valve could get the job done.. But I'd be more interested to see a way to still retain dual control for more stressful conditions.

[singedebile]

I think Lucky may have misunderstood or maybe someone else misunderstood that informed lucky...   

In an extreme braking instance you should tap the rear brake to load up the front tire before using only the front brake to stop as quickly as possible. The reason being at higher speeds the wind resistance of the bike and rider pulls up on the front tire, so if you use the front brake too aggressively without giving the bike time to transfer its weight to the front tire you can lock up the front tire .... which obviously and especially at high speed is a very bad thing

Your front wheel has 90% of the braking potential for the bike (this is not up for question), if this tangent in this topic goes on long enough I am sure someone can link to some mathematical proof...   of course combined with engine braking I rarely end up using the front brake unless I am riding in a very spirited manner.

[dave500]

a modern bike will lock the front wheel,,ours dont have much chance unless your in a laid over turn.

[Retro Rocket]

I'd think an adjustable proportioning valve could get the job done.. But I'd be more interested to see a way to still retain dual control for more stressful conditions.

I agree100% and would never do it myself but cars manage quite well {that could be considered swearing here } and have to be adjusted to work efficiently. I think it work well on very heavy bikes more than anything...

[Retro Rocket]

I think Lucky may have misunderstood or maybe someone else misunderstood that informed lucky...   

In an extreme braking instance you should tap the rear brake to load up the front tire before using only the front brake to stop as quickly as possible. The reason being at higher speeds the wind resistance of the bike and rider pulls up on the front tire, so if you use the front brake too aggressively without giving the bike time to transfer its weight to the front tire you can lock up the front tire .... which obviously and es

Whilst i understand what you are trying to say, tapping the rear brake tales load away from the front tire, the only way you will ever lock the front, apart from wet roads or oil or diesel or the like, is to "grab" the front lever panic style. The engine will slightly transfer load to the front as soon as you decelerate, The weight of the bike is behind the front wheel, thats why the rear brake is almost useless at rubbing off speed quickly, its the same with cars, the front does nearly all the work because the more front brake that is used the less contact the rear has with the road as it is unloaded by the front brake as the weight transfers forward..  The easy way to try this is to find a quiet piece of road, get up to 60mph and slam on your brakes, mark where you stop, go back and do it again but this time just use the hand brake, the difference is huge.....

[ffemt2466]

Ok fellas, I get it, probably not the best of ideas to do a combined braking system, doable but not ideal. Now that we have hopefully settled that debate can we maybe help offer some cool altertatives to a traditional lever on the handlebar braking system?? I just want to think outside the box and keep the bars clean and/or cool looking. As much as I am trying to make this a traditional "bobber/chopper" look I still want some cool sh*t on it ya know? I have looked into an internal throttle but they only seem to make them for 1" bars. I'm not positive how to swap to 1" bars, do I just change the risers? Is it that simple because Harley bars seem more prevelant?? Thanks!

[mono]

Retro - yeah i was mainly talking about low-speed riding.  Thanks for all the info.  From what you're talking about, sounds like I should sign up for the "advanced" riding course that is offered.   I mainly bomb around on the city roads, but learning good highway habits sounds like something that i need to learn!

That being said, and to stay topical to the thread - does anyone know how disc brakes perform as opposed to drums (better or worse)?  I'm guessing discs are better ?

[Lostboy Steve]

I've seen the dual action pedal thing done on softail's a lot. Usually paired with suicide clutch and jockey shift. Better than not having a front brake I guess.

[stampederunner]

Check into a set of bar end levers. You dont see them very often on bikes, but it gives the handle bars a very clean uncluttered look.

[robvangulik]

Thanks RR, I only took Honda as an example because of the known brandname, but you're right, and those old Guzzi's weren't computerguided at all, those weren't small enough to fit in a room in that time, let alone on a bike!

[Leanier]

As far as what lucky said with tapping the rear first, that is usually done to align the bike in a straight direction before hitting the front brake.  its not so much a tap as applying the rear brake slightly before the front, but only very lightly so that it aligns the bike, as the greater force on the rear tire will align the motorcycle, which provides safer front brake use.  Also, as far as braking goes, you technically want the front brake to lock up before the rear, again to provide an aligning moment to the motorcycle, and keep it from flipping around.  This is of course assuming that the rear brake is being used to its full potential as well.  A locked brake provides less force than that of one that is not locked.

-Note, the the wanting to lock the front first applies to cars, I am pretty sure the same concept will apply to bikes as well, as they are essentially the same system in a straight line.

[robvangulik]

I think it is most advisable to NEVER lock the front brake/wheel
It did happen to me a couple of times over the last few decades, and in most instances it ended in tears. As to locking the rear, so long as the rear wheel is off the ground when braking really hard, I don't see any difference if that wheel is turning or not.....and if the wheel is still on terra firma, most of the bike's weight will be on the front wheel anyway.

[grcamna2]

It's important that the wheel/tire you're thinking of "locking",which makes it lose traction to the point of sliding out from underneath you..,is completely upright and the Motorcycle is traveling dead straight ahead.If it's "almost" locking up,then you still have some traction.It's very dangerous when any tire loses traction if you're leaned over even the slightest bit...,that's a recipe for the bike "high siding" on you.
The most safe thing to do at that point of traction loss would be to let back off the brakes momentarily just to straighten the bike out a little & then PROGRESSIVELY modulate both front & rears to come to a full stop.If you're in the middle of a curve,it may take running slightly off the road if you have to....;sometimes dirt is softer than pavement. 

[KJ790]

No one has mentioned that you don't have anywhere near the control with your foot through a boot as you do with your hand on a lever. I would never go with just a rear brake pedal for all of my braking. If I were to ever link the brakes (and I personally don't think it is the best idea to go with one brake only), I would much rather just have the front lever control both wheels than have my foot control them.

Hitting the rear brake first under heavy braking also helps settle the rear end (assuming you are not locking up the back wheel at all) and keeps it from swinging out and  helps prevent it from locking up as easily when you get on the front brake. The swingarm geometry of a bike actually causes both wheels to be loaded slightly more when the rear brake is applied. This response is more predictable when the rear brake is applied first.

[grcamna2]

No one has mentioned that you don't have anywhere near the control with your foot through a boot as you do with your hand on a lever. I would never go with just a rear brake pedal for all of my braking. If I were to ever link the brakes (and I personally don't think it is the best idea to go with one brake only), I would much rather just have the front lever control both wheels than have my foot control them.

Hitting the rear brake first under heavy braking also helps settle the rear end (assuming you are not locking up the back wheel at all) and keeps it from swinging out and  helps prevent it from locking up as easily when you get on the front brake. The swingarm geometry of a bike actually causes both wheels to be loaded slightly more when the rear brake is applied. This response is more predictable when the rear brake is applied first.

+1 My first reaction when in a panic stop(unfortunately..from years of Auto driving)is to jamb down the pedal..,a too quick fearful reaction for me which would always lock up the rear wheel too fast and start that back end sliding & trying to move toward the front of the bike..and eventually does cause the cycle to be laid down...if I didn't ease up on that foot pedal. That's a great point KJ790 !

[Rgconner]

Yeesh.

Has anyone asked about the best oil to use yet?

How about helmet laws?

Edit: Wait... are you doing pods?!

[lucky]

It is not a good idea to combine the back and front brake.
The brake brake when it is used should always be applied before the front brake in a heavy braking situation, and the release of front and back brake is important as far as the sequence.

Not only is it gibberish, the braking advice is down right dangerous . The front brake should do 90% of your braking, hitting the rear first will, in most cases lock the rear and cause chaos, the rear will go wherever it likes once locked and is worse when the front is applied, the front scrubs off speed far more efficiently than the rear, meaning the rear is still trying to travel faster than the front whilst locked up. I don't know where some of you guys learned to ride but the rear brake is great for low speed stability and control, under heavy brakes, the front does almost all the work. If you have to do an emergency stop you should be going down gears quickly whilst applying the front brake heavily, if there is no time to down change the it is the front brake that will save your life, NO heavy braking should be done with the rear brake, it does sweet F@#& All  in slowing you down fast....
Joined braking systems have been around for a very long time, Honda, Kawasaki, Moto Guzzi, BMW and more use these systems, Guzzi's have had it since the mid 70's.

I agree with you completely!! When I said to use the back brake i just mean't very very lightly if at all.. I should not have even said that.
I can't explain it as well as I can do it.
The front brakes are the best for stopping.

[phil71]

HOW ABOUT THIS> we all agree that integrated brakes on a motorcycle are kind of stupid. BUT, if you MUST do it, does anyone have any genius ideas? If money were no object, I'd think that an adjustable proportioning valve and ABS would, after some calibration under varied braking situations, be pretty dammed good. NO?

[dave500]

just learn how to use the brakes properly.

[trueblue]

Integrated braking systems aren't stupid, when set up correctly, it has been proven many times by many manufacturers, and if it didn't work they wouldn't still be making them.  Using an integrated system as your sole braking system isn't ideal, but IMO it would definately be better than rear only.  But in saying that, it would definately take some nutting out to make it work in a safe manner and depending on your skill may only be a pipe dream.  One way you could make it work is mount the master cylinder in front of the pedal, and still have your brake rod running to the rear, so that when the lever is pulling on the rear brake it is also pushing on the front, the other way is to have 2 levers on the inside opperating off the one pedal, have one lever pointing up and one pointing down, have the top one pulling on the rod for your rear brake and one pointing down pushing on the front master cylinder which is mounted behind the pedal pivot. After reading this whole thread it is quite clear that most people have no clue on how a bike behaves under brakes, and which wheel does what, one thing that stood out was someones comment about locking the front brake will cause a high side, locking the front brake will cause the front to wash out and low side you, and is actually really easily recoverable if it does lock, as long as you don't panic.  Locking the rear can cause you to high side, if the bike steps out on the rear under braking and you release suddenly, the tyre catches grip and you will be given a sudden flying lesson. 

[dave500]

i guess not everyone responding to this thread has even ridden dirt bikes trueblue?and dont really have a clue,whats with traction control in high powered cars these days?sheeeese!