Author Topic: Leaky B@5t*$&D Banjo @ Master Cylinder  (Read 1566 times)

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Offline sir funk

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Leaky B@5t*$&D Banjo @ Master Cylinder
« on: May 05, 2012, 03:35:36 pm »
The front brake of CB400F has been antagonizing me since I bought the bike.  Initially I thought it just needed to be bled. Examined further to find a leaky lower hose and fluid past the piston.  So I ordered a new seal, and new hoses (cruzin something on ebay, same guy that sells the over bore piston kit from japan), a few new banjo bolts and washers and a new set of ceramic pads.
Cleaned up the caliper, replaced the seal, new pads, new hoses (all three), new bolts and washers, started bleeding. Took a while but got a pretty firm lever.  Checked for leaks in the middle of bleeding, but not at the end, at least not at the MC banjo. Went down the next morning, and there was a small amount of brake fluid in the rubber boot. Crap.  I tightened the bolt, tightened the cap (just in case) and it seemed to be OK after a short ride, good. 

After I started to ride around a bit a few days later, Checked after the ride, more fluid in the boot. Hardly enough to notice its missing from the cylinder.  Also the bleed screw was leaking.

I decided to replace the upper banjo bolt with the stock, longer bolt.  Unfortunately I was impatient and reused the washers. Tightened it back up, flushed the fluid, bled again.  Bled for a bit longer, got the lever nice and firm,  checked next morning, no leaks. 

Just went out for another ride.  No leak at the bleeder screw (but I ordered a speed bleeder anyway), and yet again more fluid in the rubber boot at the MC.  Tightened the bolt  another 1/4 turn or so. Wasn't moving easy, but wasnt using a tq wrench, so not sure how tight it is now.  Much tighter than the other short bolts at the brake light switch connector with the shorter bolt. Those connections aren't leaking.  And the brake itself works pretty well. Tested a few emergency stops, and it worked very nicely.

TLDR: My MC Banjo bolt connection is trying to kill me.


I suppose that it could just be that I reused the copper washers this time, but I'm not sure.  The old ones weren't as crushed as I've seen some, and I torqued the crap out of the bolt this time.  And it doesn't explain why a new bolt and washers didn't work (though it could be because it wasn't quite as long. I know theres rebuild kits for the MC, but it seems to be fine, and doesn't leak at the lever, just the banjo bolt.  The hose banjo fitting looks OK too -- both sides are nice and flat to make a nice seal again the copper washers. Oddly enough ago, when I took apart the shorter bolt, I had somehow sheared a slice of the washer off, which I retrieved from the threading of the Bolt. No remnants in the MC. 

Any alternate source for a nice aftermarket single caliper MC and stainless lines?  I would use sling-shot but Shaun is still overloaded, and just made the text on the front page saying so even bigger (in april I had initially ordered SS lines from him before realizing that text was there and I cancelled).  I think I may be done with the stock MC.

Offline Frostyboy

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Re: Leaky B@5t*$&D Banjo @ Master Cylinder
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2012, 03:46:32 pm »
I replaced my m/cyl recently with this one. I'm really happy with the result.
http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/CB400F-SUPER-SPORT-1976-USA/part_163011/

I also fitted a bolt with a bleeder to the end of the m/cyl. It made bleeding a breeze.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/2012/087.pdf

If you don't want to use ordinary copper crush washers, you can still get genuine.
http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/CB400F-SUPER-SPORT-1976-USA/part_162837/

Cheers.
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Offline TS250

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Re: Leaky B@5t*$&D Banjo @ Master Cylinder
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2012, 04:01:13 pm »
Try annealing the copper washers.  Heat hem until they glow red, then they'll be like new.

Offline dave500

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Re: Leaky B@5t*$&D Banjo @ Master Cylinder
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2012, 04:10:03 pm »
those bleedable banjo bolts look good frosty,check the master outlet flange where the bolt and washers tighten down on hasnt got a small nick/gouge?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 04:12:40 pm by dave500 »

Offline sir funk

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Re: Leaky B@5t*$&D Banjo @ Master Cylinder
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2012, 05:02:24 pm »
check the master outlet flange where the bolt and washers tighten down on hasnt got a small nick/gouge?

Try annealing the copper washers.  Heat hem until they glow red, then they'll be like new.

Both good suggestions. I will see if I can find my plumbing torch to refresh those washers. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the end of MC has some half dissolved paint between it and the washer, so I will take a look at that flange before scrapping this MC. 

Also those bleedable banjo bolts look great.  Probably would have saved an hour last night. Ordered. 

Thanks guys!

Offline Steve_K

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Re: Leaky B@5t*$&D Banjo @ Master Cylinder
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2012, 05:27:19 am »
I would look at the surface of the mating surfaces of the banjo and the master cylinder and make sure that they are smooth and flat.  It could be possible that tightening the bolt too much could warp things, too.  Look at the washers because anything could be damaged. 
Good luck and watch the brake fluid on your paint!
Steve
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Offline 754

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Re: Leaky B@5t*$&D Banjo @ Master Cylinder
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2012, 07:47:59 am »
 Gotta learn this;
 Once something starts leaking, if its not LOOSE, then ONLY TIGHTEN SLIGHTLY MORE... because the sealing element is not working. Overtightening will only break, warp, and generally Fcuk Up things.
 When I anneal cooper I just get it red, then quench in water, clean off any crud before using..
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Offline Don R

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Re: Leaky B@5t*$&D Banjo @ Master Cylinder
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2012, 01:33:37 pm »
On copper head gaskets we used to blacken them with acetylene then adjust the torch to a neutral flame and burn off all the black. It the flame turns green you may have gone too far.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline TS250

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Re: Leaky B@5t*$&D Banjo @ Master Cylinder
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2012, 04:04:51 pm »

Offline sir funk

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Re: Leaky B@5t*$&D Banjo @ Master Cylinder
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2012, 05:36:16 pm »
Gotta learn this;
 Once something starts leaking, if its not LOOSE, then ONLY TIGHTEN SLIGHTLY MORE... because the sealing element is not working. Overtightening will only break, warp, and generally Fcuk Up things.

 I likely over-torqued it to start with; looking at the thickness of the copper washers I used on the shorter banjo bolt, it would be easy to do. The Honda washers are almost twice as thick. 

In any case, I'll actually use a torque wrench this time.  I believe the "oil bolts" as Honda calls them are supposed to torqued to around 25lbs.  Waiting on the banjo bolt with the bleeder first.

Found it: kg-m  3.0 - 4.0 /  lbs-ft 21.7 - 28.6