Author Topic: When good carbs go bad...  (Read 3043 times)

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Offline puppytrax

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When good carbs go bad...
« on: June 11, 2006, 07:24:39 PM »
Well, I think I know why my CB500 came with several extra sets of carbs...all the #1 carbs have corroded jet bodies...(that protruding jetholder in the float bowl, that the flat spring is on)...big chunks corroded right off...the jets won't seal...

I've been trying to figure out how to use one of the good carbs from the other positions, even if the idle is on the wrong side, but the fuel inlet & overflow would be wrong, too...(I could switch the choke lever I think, but not the fuel tube & overflow tube...they seem to be either cast in or pressed in)...

So...I have a set of CB550 carbs from one of the donated bikes...I'm going to tear into them this week and see if they are usable...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 08:11:41 AM by puppytrax »
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline scott_cb650

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2006, 08:09:48 AM »
J B Weld?
Why worry about tomorrow for tomorrow has enough troubles of it's own.

Offline puppytrax

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2006, 02:36:54 PM »
J B Weld?

I considered that...or even a sleeve with epoxy resin poured in to re-form the jetholder...

But only as a last resort...

550 carbs should be close enough...if they're intact...

No more of this tearing them down, though!!! Pull the top & the carb bodies and let the whole assembly soak for a few days!!! Then put them together and try it!!!
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline TwoTired

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2006, 04:15:46 PM »
I tried JBwelding one of the post holders (corroded away) for the main jet.  Didn't work out.  Poor seal, I think.  Anyway, I replaced the carbs.

Swap all the jets, needles and emulsion tubes from the 500 carbs into the 550 carbs.  If you want to be nice to following owners, mark the carbs with the 500 set up numbers.  If you enjoy having curses hurled at you, leave the markings as is.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline puppytrax

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2006, 05:19:46 PM »
Swap all the jets, needles and emulsion tubes from the 500 carbs into the 550 carbs.

Is that really necessary??? Why not just run them as is???
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline TwoTired

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2006, 05:55:56 PM »
Because of the smaller displacement, the 500 doesn't suck on the carbs a much as the 550 does.  Jet needles are a different size/profile and the emulsion tubes have different holes sizes.  550s usually have #38 slow jets/ 500s have #40.  If your 550 carbs are from an F model, the needles are yet another profile and the mains are #98.  The 500 has 100 mains.  There can also be differences in the idle screws, too depending on model.  The difference will show not with whether it runs, but how well it runs at all throttle settings.

Of course, if your bike is not in stock configuration, some or all of the stock carb settings may not apply.  But, unless you know how the changed components behave compared to stock, it is best to begin with stock settings, test, and change the appropriate aspect of the carb  metering system and then focus on the next until the spark plug color is correct for all throttle settings.

An engine running too rich will foul the plugs.  And engine running too lean can get preignition or even detonation, breaking bits of piston rods, etc.

You wouldn't be the first to assume that the carbs work the same on the inside because they look the same on the outside.  If you just want the engine to make running sounds, slap the carbs on as is and pray.

best of luck!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline csendker

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2006, 07:25:51 PM »
...and the 550 had several different carb sets to boot.  Look here for the variations --> http://sohc4.us/?q=node/251  The 'Carb Setup Number' is typically stamped on the engine manifold side flange, like '022A'.  I would think the earlier versions, like the 022A would be the closest match, as emmissions began to influence the later versions.  The 022A has a carb-mounted choke {no cable}, no pressed in jets and operational air bleed screws.  On the later models - I believe the PD's, but I'm not sure exactly which ones - the air bleed was 'fixed' and jets began to be pressed in - all harder to modify just so we couldn't screw up the emmissions.  And the choke went to a cable-type, mounted on the bars so we didn't kill ourselves looking down to play with it.  Thank you Big Brother, and to think, it wasn't even 1984 yet.  You may also need the matching intake manifolds and possibly different rubber connectors.  I'm sure I'm getting some of the technical jargon wrong here, but you get the picture anyway.

If you go looking for them on e-bay, a couple of thoughts:
1. expect the possibility that you may recieve junk {now how would I know this??}
2. the setup number is almost never identified, but if you e-mail the seller soon enough and tell what and where to look, you will often get a reply
3. Patience really is a virtue here as many sets will skyrocket in price.  Keep trying and you can get some at a reasonable price.
Actually runs --> 1975 CB550-K1
Projects ---> Crusty old boat
Gallery --> http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/Christopher/?g2_navId=xada3c7ff

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2006, 07:28:14 PM »
Every time I see this thread title I think, at my house when they go bad they either result in a few extra pounds, or inches around the waistline.  ;D

OK, sorry for the distraction, back to serious discussion.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline csendker

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2006, 07:40:32 PM »
Vytorin sucks, works like a charm but it's killing my back.

Ok, I'm back.  You can't actually read the number in this picture, but it's stamped right here....
Actually runs --> 1975 CB550-K1
Projects ---> Crusty old boat
Gallery --> http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/Christopher/?g2_navId=xada3c7ff

Offline puppytrax

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2006, 03:43:08 AM »
Thank you all for the replies!

Yes, I have 627B's on the bike. Plus a couple more sets. And a set of 087A and 022A from a 550. Plus I did get a set of 627B from a seller on eBay - just soaked the # 1 carb last night and saw the jet holder crumble away when I removed the jet. <sob!>

So...Plan C will be the 022A's...what happened to Plan B???

Plan B is to use a good # 3 carb on cylinder # 1. Last night, I took the choke off bad carb # 1 and moved it to good carb # 3. (A different # 3 from my other good # 3 - call it # 3X). This required drilling a #30 hole and #22 relief in the carb body to hold the spring and ball that engage the detent on the choke plate. (It's only drilled out on the # 1 carbs).  I used the choke plate as a guide. I also removed the vent (or overflow or whatever it is - a 90* elbow that carries excess gas away via a rubber hose) and will tap it for a 12-32 Allen grub screw later this evening. The fuel inlet stays as is, as does the small tube that runs between the pairs of carbs opposite the vent/overflow elbow. That should complete the mods required to run the #3X carb as a #1. The idle adjustment screw will of course be on the "wrong" side, but I think I can live with that...I'm sure most of us set the idle while synch'ing the carbs anyway...(fuel tank off)...
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline TwoTired

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2006, 12:22:49 PM »
The vent line puts atmospheric pressure on the surface of the fuel in the carb bowl.  This pressure pushes fule throughht ecarb jets when the engine lowers the pressure in the carb throat.
Blocking off the vent is not a good thing.

If you have non-stock exhaust or air filtering components, the Idle bleed screws may require a setting other than the stock position.

Best of luck!

P.S.  I'm curious about the internal set up of the 087As.  If yours are in original, rebuildable condition, would you be interested in trading for a rebuildable set of 627Bs?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline puppytrax

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2006, 04:00:37 PM »
The vent line puts atmospheric pressure on the surface of the fuel in the carb bowl.  This pressure pushes fule throughht ecarb jets when the engine lowers the pressure in the carb throat.
Blocking off the vent is not a good thing.

Agreed. But the # 1 carb shares its vent with # 2 (and # 3 shares its vent with # 4); it is # 2 that has the 90* elbow on the inboard side; the vent connection between # 1 and # 2 is a straight brass tube with a short piece of hose covering it. These I have retained. Likewise, # 3 and # 4 have the same setup, in reverse: # 3 has the elbow on the inboard side, and # 4 has the corresponding hole on the other side blocked off (or more likely not drilled out). All I have done is block off the unused outboard hole in my new # 1 carb (which was the elbow hole when it was a # 3 carb).

Quote
P.S.  I'm curious about the internal set up of the 087As.  If yours are in original, rebuildable condition, would you be interested in trading for a rebuildable set of 627Bs?

I might be agreeable to a trade...I have two spare engines now, both 550's, but I think I would rather run the 022A's on them if I swap a 550 motor in. Email me and we'll sort it out.
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline puppytrax

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2006, 08:21:05 AM »
First post edited to include pic of a Bad Carb...I certainly wouldn't want my daughter going out with one of these hooligans...

My modified # 3 carb is soaking in Gunk right now...when it gets done with its bath, I'll clean it off and reassemble it...I could take a pic of it if anyone is interested (but hey - we all know what Keihins look like, right???)...

A nearby *Kawasaki* dealer had Yamaha Carb Cleaner...he handles "Kawasaki, KTM, and Yamaha" according to The Yellow Pages...but only Kawasaki bikes on display...he does have Yamaha jetskis (or whatever Yamaha calls them)...a dealer that has only the jetski franchise??? No bikes??? Very odd...I got two bottles; too late for this set, maybe later...

I see that a couple knowledgeable people are following this thread, so I'll ask - Why always is it that carb # 1 goes bad??? # 4 is always in good shape; # 3 a bit less so; # 2 a lot less; and # 1 is really rotten (literally). Is it because most owners store their bikes on the sidestand???
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 08:24:31 AM by puppytrax »
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2006, 10:16:33 AM »
Quote
Why always is it that carb # 1 goes bad??? # 4 is always in good shape; # 3 a bit less so; # 2 a lot less; and # 1 is really rotten (literally). Is it because most owners store their bikes on the side-stand???

Not knowledgeable, but can I still make a guess?  :) My guess would be side stand use, the bike spends more time inclined toward the #1 cylinder, carb, etc.  ??? :-\
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2006, 10:41:44 AM »
Water is the corrosion culprit.
Water is heavier than gasoline and collects in the system low points.
#1 one carb IS the system low point on the side stand.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline puppytrax

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2006, 10:50:10 AM »
Water is the corrosion culprit.
Water is heavier than gasoline and collects in the system low points.
#1 one carb IS the system low point on the side stand.

Cheers,

So the water flows down into the # 1 float bowl??? Since the two pairs of carbs [1&2; 3&4] only share fuel inlets between each other (not between pairs), shouldn't the # 3 carb be bad too???

What am I missing here??? Is there some other fuel connection between all four carbs???
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline TwoTired

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Re: When good carbs go bad...
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2006, 11:29:41 AM »
I've seen all 4 bad when there was more water than gas in the carbs.

And, I have a bank where #3 was the worst corroded at the main jet holder.

A test case of one is inconclusive.
A test case of two is twice as good.  But, be wary of trend information.

Care to factor in stuck floats? Or, blocked float valves?
Then there are the bowl vents to consider.
What if mud dawbers blocked a couple. Those bowls would see less evaporation and less refilling, assuming the petcock was left on, and therefore get less of the water contaminants.

Another theory is that the petcock's two feeds can be connected to either 1-2 or 3-4.  The first outlet in the log supply channel could take the heavier liquid first.  Those two carbs could get more water the the other two, depending on water volume.

Ah, things that might have been....

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.