Topic: How do I clean DOT 5 from my brake system?

[csendker]

Isn't denatured alcohol simply alcohol with an additive tossed in to make it unfit for human consumption?  Kind of just like drug store rubbing alcohol?

[Zane]

I don't know.  Guess I'd better find (figure it) out.

Hope you're right, though.

[csendker]

Yeah, me too.  I've got 4 bottle of the stuff on my shelf intending on a good cleaning before putting in whatever the heck I decide upon.

[TwoTired]

Denatured alcohol (ethyl alcohol or ethanol) is often found in hardware stores, commonly used to reduce or thin shellac. It is a rather good solvent.

Rubbing alcohol is usually isopropyl alchohol with lanolin added to keep from drying out (defatting) skin.  This you get from drug stores off the shelf.  Pure isopropyl alcohol you ask the drugist for, as it is usually used to mix up prescription drugs.
From Wikipedia-
Isopropyl alcohol is about twice as toxic as ethanol. 
Isopropyl alcohol is oxidized by the liver into acetone. Symptoms of isopropyl alcohol poisoning include flushing, headache, dizziness, CNS depression, nausea, vomiting, anesthesia, and coma. Use in well-ventilated areas and use protective gloves while using. Poisoning can occur from ingestion, inhalation, or absorption.

Also from Wikipedia-
Lanolin, also called wool wax, wool fat, or wool grease, a greasy yellow substance from wool-bearing animals.

I've no idea what effect Lanolin would have on rubber seals in a brake system.  But, I'd rather not experiment with it there.

Cheers,

[bistromath]

Isopropyl's not that toxic. Use adequate ventilation, you'll be fine.

Most drugstore alcohol is diluted to some extent. Use pure alcohol or risk water in your system.

[Zane]

So then what about methyl hydrate - how does that compare?

I understand the difference between isopropyl and ethanol now, but what's the difference between ethanol and methyl hydrate?

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem00/chem00102.htm

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Isopropyl Alcohol comes in various formulations. 70% Isopropyl "Rubbing Alcohol" is 70% Isopropyl & 30% water. This is the most common drug store variety. Use it if thats all you have. 91% Isopropyl "Rubbing Alcohol" is 91% Isopropyl & 9% water. Obviously higher concentration so therefore a better solvent. This is also commonly found over the counter in your neighborhood drug store but to a lesser extent. Green Rubbing Alcohol is 70% Isopropyl with Oil of Wintergreen aka Methyl Salicylate and green coloring added to provide an aromatic and cooling effect. I wouldn't worry about toxicity of any of these unless you drink this stuff with the methyl salicylate variety having a much higher toxicity. I would have to counsel you not to drink it. If Isopropyl were ever used to compound medications whether over the counter or prescriptons it would in all likelihood have been a mistake. Most Pharmacists keep Isopropyl around to clean pharmacy counters, mixing slabs, etc. It's not really likely that you will find rubbing alcohol with lanolin (wool fat probably from overweight female sheep) in it, whether the hydrous or anhydrous versions. Perhaps in the old days. 

Ethyl Alcohol/Ethanol is the variety we consume. It is also what is used for our gasohol. It is found most obviously in our alcoholic beverages. This is also the variety that is found in most medications whether over the counter liquid preparations or prescription medications. AKA Grain or Grain Alcohol. 95% alcohol & 5% water. Great buzz but harsh on brains and livers. Excellent solvent. And, yes, Pharmacists usually purchase their's from the liquor store then consume what is left over. Much easier than going through the official purchasing channels. It generally has 2 purposes in medications. It is used to dissolve powders then incorporate them into the various dosage forms. It is also used somewhat as a sedative. Does anyone remember that Nyquil used to kick your ass more than it does now? the reason is that it previously contained 35% ethyl alcohol. Holy #$%* - grandma never drank but she sure got a good buzz with that 70 proof cough syrup and the antihistamine it contained! It even comes with it's own shot glass. The manufacturer very quietly reduced the alcohol content to 10% more so as a dissolution vehicle.

Denatured alcohol is Ethanol (not to be confused with gasohol) with a denaturing agent in it. Meaning something to make it poisonous if it is consumed. Usually acetone, methyl ethyl ketone (MEK), and previously benzene. Fantastic solvent. The government does not tax this like they do drinking alcohol so if you drink it they intend to pay you back with the denaturing agent by further poisoning your liver and brain. What is it they say about life, death and taxes?!

Let's not forget about our lonely alcohol brother - Methyl Alcohol. AKA Wood Alcohol. Most often forgotten member of the alcohol family and not used as much or as common. This is the alcohol that will make you go blind. And to think your mother told you that having a date with yourself makes you go blind!   

These, my friends, are your common garden variety alcohols and I don't have a clue about methyl hydrate. I haven't spoken about use with brake systems but thats not really my forte. I will admit to having DOT5 newly installed in my front system and DOT3 in the rear system. Is this like a cross dresser??!! Both are working fine.

Jerry RPh
(we prefer Pharmacist to Druggist - it takes 6 years year-round to get that friggin title - however I am called much worse!)

   

[Zane]

Thanks RXman.

Here's an interesting link i found.  It happens to be about alcohol and disk brakes, by coincidence - but disk brakes for bicycles.  It's pretty good, I think.

Another thing I found out - unlike many other aspects of our relationship, there are quite a few legislative and administrative differences between how Canada and the US deal with alcohols.  It's extremely difficult to find so called "denatured" alcohol up here. 

So, after reading a bunch, I used methyl hydrate to clean my brake system today.  (After that though, I'm sure someone will tell me where to get denatured alcohol in Canada land.)  And yes, I did wear gloves.

Now I'm going to go downstairs and put it all back together.

And just out of interest Two Tired; I cleaned all the parts in a stainless bowl of methylhydrate and about half way through I noticed little circles at the bottom of the alcohol that looked suspiciously like fat.  I wonder if that could be from the isopropyl additive(s).  It sure looked like lanolin.   Yeeesh!

However, the o-ring caliper piston seal was the same (looking) as the new one I have.  I guess that's a good sign.

[TwoTired]

I really don't want to argue with a druggy, I mean Pharmacist.   And, I'm willing to admit things may have changed over the years.  But, I distinctly recall raiding mom's supply of rubbing alcohol for use as a solvent to clean gasket surfaces on the lawnmowers I was rebuilding in my teens.  I could not get the surfaces clean, they were always greasy.  Finally, noticed the rubbing alcohol (isopropyl) label touted the addition of lanolin to keep from drying out skin.  I had to use gasoline to get the surfaces clean and dry. (limited resources)  Mom was happy because I stopped raiding the medicine cabinet.

Over the years manufacturers of many products began to remove complete ingredient listings on products to befuddle buyers and reduce plagarism.  Still, I always equated rubbing alcohol with having some kind of additive to keep from drying out skin.  Seems logical doesn't it?

Do you suppose modern manufacturers of rubbing alcohol list only actual ingredients?

Then, back in the late seventies I asked a dru Pharmacist for alcohol without the lanolin.  He gave me a digusted look (my those guys are sensitive) and then retrieved a quart bottle of isopropyl, touting 99% purity.  Pretty sure it sucked humidity out of the air when opened though. I'm afraid to ask them for it now.  They might call the cops!

Zane, the globs at the bottom of your stainless bowl might possibly be silicone.  But, I'm no chemist.

Mankind is NOT a rational animal.  Mankind is a rationalizing animal.  Don't know who I'm quoting here.  But, it's true.

Cheers,

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Hey TT,

You sure you weren't trying to drink that stuff?  My mom kept her "good stuff" hidden from her only son !! My first job in the drug store was in '68 I think. Needed to buy my first set of wheels. Man, how things have changed. You used to be able to get "old fashioned remedies" but now the government wants you to prove they are not only safe but effective also and most of the old time meds can't really put the major bucks and time into this kind of double blind placebo testing only to have such limited non profitable sales. Hence, no more old time remedies. Easier to go under than fight it.( I used to remove the muffler from our old mower late at night and make it back fire to the delight of our neighbors. Damn kids.) I think it just might have been her rubbing alcohol I was swiping?! No wonder her whiskey tasted funny! I think you'll find that active ingredients are labeled initially with inactive ingredients following. FDA, attornies, allergies, etc. #$%*, before you know it, the damn FDA will have us wearing helmets!

You gotta be careful what you ask for these days. Just don't ask for Sudafed, matches, Coleman fuel, coffee filters, etc especially in large quantities. Those guys do get very sensitive these days (probably from the chafing of the no lanolin rubbing alcohol) .

Any alcohol that has a percentage higher than 95% is considered analytical grade. 91% or 95% is plenty, more readily available and MUCH cheaper. Stick with the Golden Grain at 190 proof (95%) and consume the remainder with grape juice (also known as purple passion). As I remember it, thats the reason I missed a shift on my 75 CB750F in '76 on A1A outside Daytona and blew the engine. Come to think of it, I wouldn't have the pleasure of all your company if it weren't for alcohol !!! Thank you alcohol!!

Anyway, on a more serious note TT, I would like to express my gratitude for all your electrical help. This Pharmacist druggist didn't know #$%* about electrical until you so graciously helped. I am a MUCH more informed idiot now. AND, I think the system is looking better. I reserve my judgement until after I get my new battery charger and a fresh battery. I cleaned 1,000,001 connectors (all friggin day + some!) but I have about 6 left. Took it for a brief spin yesterday with my suspect puny battery and put the meter to the battery across both terminals (not to the reg yet) and watched the reading slowly climb as I held it at a steady 4500rpm. Can't do anymore at this point short of a new wiring harness and I couldn't ask for a more patient, nicer, or more knowledgable instructor. I owe you big time buddy!!! I get the impression you might be in CA. If so, I'll be buying you whatever amount/type alcohol you desire on my annual August ride next year. Let's do the coast.

I'm back to Jerry now.     

[hcritz]

Hey T-T
Wonder if it was finger nail polish remover???
I remember they put lanolin in that stuff at one point!
That would really suck to drink!

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Finger nail polish is a quick source for ACETONE in most cases.

[eldar]

in most cases it is more than just acetone. Which is too bad. I have heard or people putting acetone in the gas about 3oz to 10 gallons and increasing their mileage but up to 20%. Now this is in cars though. there is a site with all kinds of stuff likethis on it called mpgresearch.com  It would probably work in a bike too. no reason it should not since these people are using it in carbs on cars and aside from different designs, work the same way.  ithink they use it in injection too. It is something I am going to look into. If I can get the same power in the summer and go 10 - 20% farther, well that is more money for project bikes!

[hcritz]

Yep...cheap super glue remover!

[hcritz]

Hey Zane...
Every get that front brake working?
Just curious...
ED

[BobbyR]

Since I brought up Denatured Alcohol. Denatured Alcohol is Methanol. The Brake fluid is Methanol and in some cases Glycerin and some other additives. The Alcohol evaporates and leaves the everything else as a residue. This residue will go back into suspension in Methanol. If you flush your system with it, you can then go to DOT whatever you want.  If you wear gloves it is safe to work with. It is also a dandy spot paint remover.

[Bodi]

DOT-3 and DOT-4 brake fluids are made of various kinds of glycol ethers. Diethylene, triethylene, and about 50 others may be in there. There is no methanol or any other alcohol in them according to the many MSDS sheets I've checked.
"Denatured" alcohol usually means ethanol (booze) with something added to make you puke if you drink it. Methanol is sometimes called "wood alcohol" and is used as gas line antifreeze among other things, you go blind if you drink it (but catch a decent buzz first I've been told). Isopropyl alcohol is a pretty good cleaner and isn't quite as hygroscopic as methanol, you can get 70% isopropyl with some camphor and junk added sold as "rubbing alcohol" and some drug stores also have 99% pure stuff, better for cleaning. It is safe for most painted surfaces and rubber.

[techy5025]

I've read all the arguments for and against Dot 5....and still fall in the "love
it" category.  It has been in my K0 for at least 20 years with no problems.
I recently took my system apart to install stainless hoses and polish the
caliper.  I found no leaks and no swelling that I could see....the seal is the
original 1969 seal.....that had Dot 3 originally.

With the new lines I have....at most... three quarters of an inch travel at the
end of the brake lever as hard as I can grip it.....and the brakes retract fully.

As has been stated....you use what works for you.

Jim

[Zane]

Hey Zane...
Every get that front brake working?
Just curious...
ED

Hey Zane...
Every get that front brake working?
Just curious...
ED

The short answer is yes.

Some of the long answer is that it took me a long time to sort it out.  All the help and comments were extremely helpful, men.  I can also say with almost total certainty that if it wasn't for Two Tired, I'd either still be working on it, or I would have given up and either taken it to a shop or found another system.
(I would like to find a course somewhere, not so much in mechanics per se, but one that teaches a method for problem solving mechanical difficulties.  In my case, my assumptions caused me to perform many unnecessary tasks, and the actual, real problem didn't emerge until after I'd spent enough hours working on the bike to buy a whole new motorcycle, if I were being paid.  I must say though, that the satisfaction of finding and solving the problem was greater than [but not much greater than] the frustration of making the mistake which caused the whole thing.)

I broke my wrist a couple of months ago, and about five weeks ago I put power levers on my bike to make braking a bit easier for me.  When I put on the brake lever I compared it to the stock one, and it seemed, if not identical, at least similar enough.  WRONGO!  The new lever was somehow disabling the return flow to the MC reservoir.

Before I figured that out, I assumed the DOT 5 had caused the rubber/synthetic rubber bits in the system to somehow swell or to stop working.  Everything I did, including starting this thread, was based on that assumption.  In a way, I'm glad it turns out to be a one way switch (or at least a difficult switch back to DOT 3.  

I checked the rubber o-ring in the caliper, and it seemed fine (after 6 months of DOT 5).  I replaced the seal regardless.  I found an OEM rebuild kit for the master cylinder and rebuilt that thing. I cleaned out the caliper and piston cylinder so as it looked to be new.  Still didn't work.  Double checked the master cylinder rebuild and found that I had done that incorrectly (because every picture I have of those bits, shows one of the seals in the wrong spot.  The Haynes book even writes out how to do it improperly.)  Redid the MC. Still didn't work.  Right from the get go, I made sure that the caliper mounting bracket was swinging freely and properly installed.  I also had the usual (for me) list of issues as I went forward - broke off a couple of bolts (which I managed to get out of the threads anyway) and stripping the bleeder valve screw.

I learned a lot though.  For sure it was a good thing learning about that Dow High Vacuum Grease.  (Thanks Two Tired.)  I used about two lifetime's worth of the stuff, and still have enough to last me for the rest of my life (if I buy about ten more motorcycles).  (Bob, I'll send you an ounce if you email me your mailing address.)

I also learned how to properly clean brake parts (thanks old fart).

So the end of the story is this; I took Two Tired's page of instructions  http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=7440.0 and forced myself to follow them (rather than jump around, like I usually do).  When I got to the part about being able to push in the piston-side puck with about 5 to 10 pounds of force - I couldn't.  So I took Two Tired's instruction, and figured (or tried to figure) that out before proceeding.  

There just seemed to be no reason why it wouldn't work.  I took a frustration break and came upstairs to continue looking for help here.  Something twigged when I read Two Tired's post on Greg’s topic -  but i just rebuilt my brakes!!! ie: why are they sticking?!?!


….If the piston in the MC bore is sticking, you ought to be able to feel excessive play in the brake lever.
Oh Wait...Did you change levers?  Some levers have different "piston pusher nubs".  If yours is too long, it would block the full retraction of the mc piston. ….

Thinking it couldn’t be that, could it, I however put the old lever back - and voila - problem solved.  So Master Two Tired’s creative thinking with respect to another member’s problem actually did it for me.

So, after it all - (in that wonderful world where I had another chance) I would stick with the DOT 3.  (See Mike Nixon’s http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/cows-brakefluid.html    Rather than change to DOT 5 to protect my paint I would have the caliper ceramic coated.  I think I might still do that if I can find a new system at a great price (on ebay or somewhere).  But the idea of sticking with the original design idea (DOT 3) for my bike is a lot more appealing now, even though my problem(s), as far as I can tell, really don’t arise from changing to DOT 5, as it turned out.

(I can't imagine my frustration if I had actually changed back to the DOT 3, and it still didn't work. (Which it wouldn't have, for sure, if I hadn't found the lever issue).

I've thanked you all a lot, but thanks again.  I'll do a DOT 5 update/progress report in a few months - see how it's going....

(Oh yeah - I ground down the power lever and now it works well too.  Jeez - that sucker sure did look the same when I installed it - but it obviously wasn't the same enough - if you know what I mean....)

Gratefully -

Bill

[techy5025]

....there's also that adjusting bolt that takes the slack out of the lever.
Having that jobbie turned fully out would probably also block full
retraction. 

Jim

[Zane]

I'm not exactly sure which bolt you mean, T5025.  I think my lever has only the bolt which holds the lever on.  After I sawed my power lever down to size, I put it back on the bike.  I over-tightened that bolt (and/or the nut on the bottom) and indeed that caused the same, retraction problem.  So I loosened it off.  Now the lever has too much flop at the out position.  If I wanted too I suppose I could custom cut a rubber stopper to fit there, where the regular sized one fits, and that would clean up that looseness.

But now I'm starting to wonder about the wisdom of changing levers in the first place.  I just got (limped) back from a ride with a snapped clutch cable.  When I pull my head out of my butt long enough to look at that side lever objectively, it looks like this silly (so called) power lever really puts more stress on the clutch cable than the stock setup.  On the brake side, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the somewhat diminished distance between the lever and the throttle with the (so called) power lever.

I like the (so called) power levers for their ease of use.  I don't have very big hands, and my right one is only about 60 to 70 percent strength.  However, the grief they seem to have caused me (so far) has very rapidly and greatly diminished any appeal they might have (have had) for me.

But I suppose that's all another topic .....

Cheers!   

(I changed the angle of the camera enough so as to be able to distinguish easily between the two levers.  When you look straight on, they look very similar.  One of the mistakes I made when I was comparing them was thinking the relationship between the mounting hole and either end of the lever was the important thing.  But I think now that all three must be identical.  So that's how I made it.)

 

[techy5025]

There is another bolt on my master cylinder that screws in from the bottom
that controls the slack before the lever hits the plunger.  In the pic it almost
in the center. You can see the bolt has been cut in half on the end.

Maybe this was only on the early master cylinders...this is off a K0.

Jim

[Zane]

I don't think mine ('76 400f) has that bolt.

Maybe it's (another) case of earlier being better, eh?