Author Topic: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.  (Read 22537 times)

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Offline Rookster

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2012, 03:02:53 pm »
Quote
"stock Honda system" doesn't sound like stock Honda motorcycle.

Then why do they specify what mainjet they are using and that it was tested on a dyno?

Quote
Advertisers and corporations never lie, their numbers are 10000% true no matter what you say to dispute them.

I expected nothing less.  Of course Dunstall didn't have a race pedigree and their reputation on the line when they made these claims.  Dunstall wasn't MAC here trying to peddle an exhaust system.  Two of their production bikes (Dunstall Norton Commando and Dunstall GS1000) were the worlds fastest production bikes in 1971 and 1979 respectively.  But again since I made an argument with actuall data that is counter to the "stock is best" mantra lets pick it apart rather than actually debate the merits of a performance exhaust system and the fact that it might actually improve bhp over the rpm range by more than 1-3%. 

Scott
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 03:04:28 pm by Rookster »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2012, 03:08:55 pm »
Quote
You might be able to eek out 1-3% more HP with intake and exhaust mods made to the stock engine at red line.

Really?  Dunstall published numbers that were much higher than 1-3% at many different rpms with only an exhaust system change and 115 main jets (everything else stock):

How do you account for these increases?
Advertising bravado, at least at some level.
Are those exhausts still available for testing?  That IS and interesting advert!  Do you have an any independent party testing data of the product?

Things I notice:
They carefully said they compared their exhaust to the stock exhaust system on A CB750, rather than specifying an otherwise stock motor on which the comparison was made?  Hard to tell if it was intentionally word-smithed that way, or not.  But, I never underestimate advertising "slickness".
Certainly that last picture with the CB750 red head, leads me to suspect they changed something other than the exhaust, as well.
I'm sure you are aware that there are variances among dyno machine readouts, too.  If I was in marketing, I'd have it tested where the results came back as favorably as possible.  I've experienced that practice before, as well.  In the shady world, have the base model tested where the dynos numbers are low, and have your added product tested at a different facility that returns generally higher numbers.

I've encounter this sort of thing many times where confirmation testing fell far short of manufacturer claims, or they did the test in such a way as show more emphasis than is actually realized.

But, I will admit that some exhaust systems do perform better than others, if they were indeed engineered for that specific task.  Take a poll and see how many posters actually have a true performance exhaust vs, a MAC replacement that has had no performance engineering.  This was what I was typically addressing.

Still, Dunstall has a good reputation in track matters, and clearly had skills.  But, were all those engines really in stock configuration?

The "Gilding the Lilly" practice is particularly rampant in the performance parts arena where buyers are more interested in the bottom line goal than how it was tested or if the offering can really gain them what the advertiser promised on their particular machine. 
The manufacturer nowadays has the disclaimer the equivalent of, "Your Mileage May Vary".

Certainly you know that among 10 identical production models, they will not all perform identically.  Some will be faster and some will respond to certain changes better than others.  If you applied you product to 10 samples, with varying results, would you publish the least favorable data, the average of the data samples or just the best of the data?

I have one Cb550 that is faster than all the rest of them.  I wish I knew why.  They are all stock.  Were I to showcase a performance enhancing product, I'd pick that bike to install it on, for public observation, were I a slick marketeer.
I'd have to be pretty hungry to do such a thing in real life, though.

Also, you can "trick" the numbers by using a combination of the above techniques.

As usual, it's just my opinion, your mileage will vary.  If you can really bolt on 11 HP for not much money, go for it!  I remain skeptical.
But, I'd much prefer to see the raw test data, than just the advertising carrot offered for scrutiny.  I can be swayed with the proper data.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Rookster

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2012, 03:21:32 pm »
Two Tired, I agree with you here.  I'm positive Dunstall skewed the numbers to look best.  They also made 3 different types of exhaust systems for the CB750 and they never specify which system returned those numbers.  My larger point was that stock can be improved for a purpose in the exhaust arena.  That Dunstall exhaust may yield higher bhp numbers but it also covers your traditional passenger pegs and moves them much farther back.  That was the only point I was trying to make.  I actually own a CB750 with that exact exhaust system on it that is almost stock (.25 over pistons and 115 mainjets).  I would love to have it dyno tested someday.  I will post the results good or bad.

Scott

Offline phil71

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2012, 03:22:12 pm »
No one is saying these things CAN'T increase power. Get out of the book and under the bike, and you find that bang-for-the buck is pretty low.  The biggest gains, by their claims, come at an rpm range that isn't all that useful or seat-of-the-pants , unless you run wide open all the time.
    I agree with TT, the clever language there makes me think it's giving them a little help for the sake of selling stuff.  An omission is not a lie.

Offline Triffecpa

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2012, 03:24:15 pm »

Pod filters certainly make it easier to remove the carbs though. 

I'm just sayin'.....

Tracy

Offline phil71

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2012, 03:29:09 pm »
that's fortunate.. cuz you definitely will be taking them on and off a ton for tuning ! ;)

Offline lucky

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2012, 03:37:30 pm »
This is what I get.

Carb intake area = A (area)=Pi x R 2(.85) =2.26 x (4 carbs)= is 9.079 sq. inches

Ok..I was off a little.  ;D

I may have measured the diameter of the venturi at its widest point.
By the way my throttle is OPEN most of the time .LOL....lol..lol

If I had the money ($800.00!!!) I would buy a set of CR racing carbs and forget about the stock PD Keihin carbs.
I like carbs that are meant to be tuned and adjusted.

Soon someone will make a aftermarket bolt on fuel injection kit.


With the PD carbs it is an uphill battle.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 03:45:51 pm by lucky »

Offline phil71

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2012, 03:52:02 pm »
Lucky , CR carbs are another thing that really need some internal engine work to take advantage of. Also.. someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the CRs don't have idle circuitry.. which is why you always hear racer guys going vroom vroom vroom before the flag goes down.

Offline Triffecpa

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2012, 03:57:39 pm »
.. which is why you always hear racer guys going vroom vroom vroom before the flag goes down.

I thought that we did that cuz it sounds cool...

TR

bollingball

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2012, 05:03:14 pm »
This is what I get.

Carb intake area = A (area)=Pi x R 2(.85) =2.26 x (4 carbs)= is 9.079 sq. inches

Ok..I was off a little.  ;D

I may have measured the diameter of the venturi at its widest point.
By the way my throttle is OPEN most of the time .LOL....lol..lol

If I had the money ($800.00!!!) I would buy a set of CR racing carbs and forget about the stock PD Keihin carbs.
I like carbs that are meant to be tuned and adjusted.

Soon someone will make a aftermarket bolt on fuel injection kit.

With the PD carbs it is an uphill battle.
The pd carbs are so simple. They are truly idiot proof. I just can not understand why you have so much trouble with them.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2012, 05:07:13 pm »
This is what I get.

Carb intake area = A (area)=Pi x R 2(.85) =2.26 x (4 carbs)= is 9.079 sq. inches

Ok..I was off a little.  ;D

I may have measured the diameter of the venturi at its widest point.
And you STILL measured wrong and used the wrong number for your calculation.  The definition of a venturi is the narrowest part the carb's "tunnel" which is right at the slide opening.  This is where the air speeds up and provides a pressure drop for fuel atomization.

Besides, you don't have to measure anything. The shop manual/owner's manual tells you outright they have 28mm carbs.  Are you now arguing with the manual?  Are you claiming that the carbs are actually 43mm carbs?

Are you going to correct your prior posts and proclaimations?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline wookie

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2012, 05:26:50 pm »
Lucky , CR carbs are another thing that really need some internal engine work to take advantage of. Also.. someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the CRs don't have idle circuitry.. which is why you always hear racer guys going vroom vroom vroom before the flag goes down.

Really?
My bike idles fine and is very responsive off throttle thank-you very much.

Offline lucky

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2012, 06:09:11 pm »
This is what I get.

Carb intake area = A (area)=Pi x R 2(.85) =2.26 x (4 carbs)= is 9.079 sq. inches

Ok..I was off a little.  ;D

I may have measured the diameter of the venturi at its widest point.
By the way my throttle is OPEN most of the time .LOL....lol..lol

If I had the money ($800.00!!!) I would buy a set of CR racing carbs and forget about the stock PD Keihin carbs.
I like carbs that are meant to be tuned and adjusted.

Soon someone will make a aftermarket bolt on fuel injection kit.

With the PD carbs it is an uphill battle.
The pd carbs are so simple. They are truly idiot proof. I just can not understand why you have so much trouble with them.

Who said i have trouble with them??

I don't.

Offline cgswss

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2012, 07:10:19 pm »
The thing that your "air pump" does not take into account the the effect of  "ram tuning"   I wrote up a long post explaining what that was then manged to delete it.  Basically you can adjust the length of the exhaust and intake track to push mixture back into the cylinder just before the exhaust valve closes.

Back in the day there used to be side by side compensation tests of after market exhausts in Motorcycle mags.  I believe Cycle World was the first to get a dyno.  I very much remember tests where they ran a stock bike on the dyno and on the 1/4 mile to get a base.  Then they would run the same bike with the after market exhaust with the changes to jetting and needle the manufacturer recommended.  In every test of this kind, some and often most aftermarket pipes showed a measurable improvement both on the dyno and on the track.  The dyno charts were most interesting as they often showed the after market pipe was worse at low RPM but then would "come up on the pipe" to give a big jump in HP at a certain RPM range.  (not unlike a two stroke pipe works).  The other thing that was almost always shown is a flat spot some where in the mid RPM range.  The other thing that surprised some was that the pipes that produced the most power sometimes din't have the best 1/4 times.

When I was racing we had access to a dyno (it was actually at a school back in the days when they had "auto Shop" in high school)  We were working on a B MOD drag bike.  Dunstall had a "kit" that included both intact and exhaust goodies.  Remember the Norton was a long stroke push rod engine, you you had to tune to a lot lower RPMs then even a box stock OHC 4.  The intake side included a rather long spacer that went between the carb and head and then a long horn.  The longer intake track brought the "ram tuning" effect down into the range the engine could actually use.  The exhaust side included a longish megaphone to again put the ram effect in the mid to upper RPM range.  The bike started out with a stock cam, stronger springs, 3 angle valve job, 13 tooth counter shaft and a constant loss ignition system.  We ran base runs that the strip like that then put it on the dyno so we had a base line.  We then installed the intake and exhaust and used the dyno to find the best jetting and needle.  The engine was stronger everywhere (and made lots more noise)  at the strip we got the single biggest drop in et of any one change we ever made.  we went from 13.40s down to 12.90s  Later we upgraded the cam and rocker arms and did some port work (moving the power up the RPM range)  to get the best performance we ended up shorting the intake some and shortening the exhaust along with a shorter faster taper megaphone.

And of course, how many drag bikes do you see with air boxes and mufflers (unless rules require them)

I 100% agree that pipes and more so pods are NOT a good bolt on investment.  They make tuner much harder and often create untuneable holes in the RPM range.  The biggest problem is pipes are most often designed for a stock air box and I doubt anyone offers pods tuned for a specific bike (anymore).  Also the improvements are to higher RPMs and over a more narrow RPM range. 

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it!

Offline scottly

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2012, 08:51:47 pm »

  STILL, not running great. WTF? Well, it turned out that to really get it right, using about 10" of goriila tape wrapped around the pods did the trick... and the bike ran fantastic. BUT, I seriously doubt it was any faster than stock.
 
Are you serious?? You call that really getting it right??? :o
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Offline phil71

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2012, 08:55:06 pm »
Wookie, I stand corrected. Once upon a time, before the street/strip version, a CR carb from kehin was a race only setup, with no idle circuits.

Offline phil71

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2012, 09:01:25 pm »
Scottly, I went up a jet size to 115 for a little while and it drowned the thing. Went back down, and shimmed the needle one more time, ok in high revs but not smooth getting there.
That restriction cured the hesitation and let it pull even and strong. If it runs well for him for a few more days, I'll screw some thin aluminum to the filters at the marks and call it a day.
currently the tape is wrapped in a "C" shape from the insides , and can't be seen.

 Truth be told, I tried to talk him into just getting it running right in stock trim, but he brought me the kits, and wanted it done. I went above and beyond, and the bike runs beautifully.  I could have changed pilot jets (that weren't in the kit) and dicked around with it for another half a day, but he didn't have the scratch to pay for that kind of time. Tell ya what, if you wanna go in and 'fix' my 'mistake' for free on your time, I'll give you his number.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2012, 09:12:56 pm »
With respect to all...... yes, it is/was the fix. Just because a restriction on the air  :)ntake resolved the ' lack of gas getting ingested' seems simple/cheating, I disagree.  The intake restriction or opening has a very large effect on what happens in the carb and is a big part of carb tuning. Changes to the airbox opening, for example, would have an important effect on carb throat vacuum and the overall carb performance...
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Offline scottly

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2012, 09:20:57 pm »


 Truth be told, I tried to talk him into just getting it running right in stock trim, but he brought me the kits, and wanted it done. I went above and beyond, and the bike runs beautifully.  I could have changed pilot jets (that weren't in the kit) and dicked around with it for another half a day, but he didn't have the scratch to pay for that kind of time. Tell ya what, if you wanna go in and 'fix' my 'mistake' for free on your time, I'll give you his number.

Fair enough. You had to deal with the customer's needs and demands. I don't think that justifies a wholesale condemnation of intake and exhaust modifications... ;)
Scott
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Offline OneWheelDrive

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2012, 09:23:38 pm »
There is certainly a difference between paying shop time to have someone else dick with your jetting puzzle and spending your own time on this undertaking.  I take my bike to a professional shop ONLY when they know what they're doing better than I would or they have tools that I don't have access to.  I would be really pissed off if I was paying an hourly rate for someone to simply be "figuring it out".  Phil, I don't disagree with your approach or your philosophy on the matter.  He made a request, you made the best of it as quickly as you could. 

The pods and pipe slippery slope is one that an owner should toy with only with the understanding that the engineers who designed these induction and exhaust systems were certainly smarter, and more committed to the effort than you are. That is why it is so crucial for the community to share their experience with their own systems, and the related "butt dyno" to see if their setup works.  The average evening/weekend wrencher couldn't possibly have the time, resources, or education to truly KNOW that their modifications have actually improved, or even maintained, stock performance.

All I know is that my exhaust modification makes my bike sound and feel like I want it to.  Using my buddy's bike as a baseline reference point, I know this bolt-on has not hindered my performance in the slightest.  But I also know I would never mount pods.  Smarter and more experience people than I run stock airboxes, why mess with what works?
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1973 CB350F *sold*
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Offline phil71

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2012, 09:56:36 pm »
Sigh... It's not really a condemnation . Just stating the many pitfalls . I really should have been more critical of the air filter and less of the exhaust..  Either way... All day long there are a billion posts from newbies who put this stuff on then never get it running right. Just once I wanna hear someone admit they care about the look and sound far more then the driveability.

Offline scottly

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2012, 10:03:40 pm »
Smarter and more experience people than I run stock airboxes, why mess with what works?
And even more experienced people don't run air-boxes. Sorry, but I had to throw that in. ;D Bottom line, if you don't know the intricacies of carburetor tuning, stay with stock....
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Offline 754

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2012, 10:09:08 pm »
 I still hate them boxes... I would rather put  Webers on even if I cant get aircleaners on them, than mess with that freaking box.. at least they are a carb that is easy to work on, unlike the Honda carbs...
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Offline OneWheelDrive

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2012, 10:12:25 pm »
Smarter and more experience people than I run stock airboxes, why mess with what works?
And even more experienced people don't run air-boxes. Sorry, but I had to throw that in. ;D Bottom line, if you don't know the intricacies of carburetor tuning, stay with stock....

:-D that's what I get for throwing my hat in the ring.  For what I'm after in my SOHC4: reliability, longevity, consistent power, and above all, fun, the airbox is for me.  If I wanted to squeeze 1/10ths of a second out of lap or drag times, I wouldn't be riding a 35 year old, 50 horsepower bike with mediocre brakes and suspension.  For that, I'll stick to my modern bike.
1975 CB550 cafe
1971 CB500 stocker
2008 Ducati Hypermotard 1100S *sold*
1973 CB350F *sold*
1975 CB550K Project "Keeper" *sold*
2010 Ducati Monster S4RS *sold*
1976 CB360T *sold*
1974 CB550K *sold*
1973 CB750K *sold*
1978 CB550K *sold*
2007 Vespa LX150 *sold*

Offline scottly

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Re: to all the pod and pipe people, past present and especially future.
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2012, 10:19:03 pm »


:-D that's what I get for throwing my hat in the ring.  For what I'm after in my SOHC4: reliability, longevity, consistent power, and above all, fun, the airbox is for me.
Hey, absolutely nothing wrong with that! (Snicker, with Webers, I have all of the above, plus 60+ MPG when cruising.  ;D ;D ;D)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 10:26:33 pm by scottly »
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