Author Topic: My 1975 cb550f. Sidecover Work  (Read 22772 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Fish

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Current Topic: A hurdle with the Muffler
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2006, 08:17:43 PM »
Thanks tintin, that is exactly the part that I was looking for.  I'll place an order with WHH. 
And yes the other clamp is what they call the muffler band but I will avoid buying it if I can get away with using a couple cheap hose clamps instead. 

Now all I need to do is figure out what other stuff I should order while I'm at it.  Crap this stuff is expensive though - $92US for the kick starter arm?!!  Who's making the parts for these old Hondas?  Ducati?  >:(

- Chad

edit: or maybe I will wait to order until I hear whether or not your old muffler is on the market  ;)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 08:31:52 PM by Fish »

Offline Tim.

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,945
  • www.DOTHETON.com
    • DO THE TON
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Current Topic: A hurdle with the Muffler
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2006, 09:34:16 PM »
You think it's expensive now?  I wrote this up a year ago, and have spent more since...

http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=2894.msg31143#msg31143
Roule comme dans les années 70...   Roll as in the Seventies...

Offline oldbiker

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,101
  • I HATE RAIN
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Current Topic: A hurdle with the Muffler
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2006, 01:54:17 AM »
MandP motorcycle catalogue lists these crushable gaskets. The last time I bought some they were £1 each. Even with shipping costs they should not come too expensive.

Offline Fish

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Current Topic: A hurdle with the Muffler
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2006, 06:07:46 AM »
tintin,
You're not making me feel any better brother  :D

oldbiker,
I had heard that the ones described as 'crushable gaskets' were to connect the top of the headers to the engine, not the headers to the muffler...
At any rate, a place that sells any part for this bike for $1, deserves a closer look.  I will do a search and check them out, thanks!

- Chad

Offline Tim.

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,945
  • www.DOTHETON.com
    • DO THE TON
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Current Topic: A hurdle with the Muffler
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2006, 07:07:03 AM »
Chad - you're right - the crushable copper rings are for your header to your cylinder head.  The gasket you're looking for is specific to the 550F, and is made out of some sort of graphite material (it's horribly messy).  It's rigid - not flexible in the least.  It slips right over the header and the muffler then slips over it with the clamp in place.

WHH is a great source for this sort of thing.  I had great experience with them, and also ordered my NOS right-side cover in Sunrise Orange from them.  If you ever do that, keep in mind the NOS side covers do not come with the decals in place - those were a seperate part number.

Shipping wasn't too expensive either.
Roule comme dans les années 70...   Roll as in the Seventies...

Offline Fish

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2006, 07:44:45 PM »
Well,
I changed the sparkplugs today and put fresh gas in the tank (along with a carb cleaner additive that the shop recommended).
I kick started it and got it to idle with some fancy choke work.  I even rode in a slow circle around my back yard.  The bike ran extremely rough and only evened out around 2500 rpm.  The #4 header was much cooler than the other three and I don't think that it was firing on that cylinder.  Is there a way to check if it is a carb problem or an engine problem?  It doesn't make much sense, but I pulled the spark cap off of #4 to check for a spark and when I did, the bike died...
Also, I turned the drain screws out on all 4 carbs but no fuel drained out the tubes.  If I turned the screws out far enough the fuel began running out of them, but still no fuel came out the tubes.  From all of my reading of other threads, I am guessing that the advise will be to take the carbs apart and clean them and rebuild all the floats and seals, but I am very intimidated by this job.  Is there anyone else that isn't a mechanical wizard but found a solution to a smooth running bike?  With my skills, I probably fit somewhere between:    Rebuilding everything singlehandedly -------and-------- Leaving them under my pillow for the Carb Fairy  :P 

Thanks,

- Chad

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2006, 11:34:42 PM »
The #4 header was much cooler than the other three and I don't think that it was firing on that cylinder.  Is there a way to check if it is a carb problem or an engine problem?  It doesn't make much sense, but I pulled the spark cap off of #4 to check for a spark and when I did, the bike died...

The bike fires two cylinders at once and current flow for spark is from one plug to the other.  Pull an ignition lead and you lose two cylinders.

Also, I turned the drain screws out on all 4 carbs but no fuel drained out the tubes.  If I turned the screws out far enough the fuel began running out of them, but still no fuel came out the tubes. 

No surprise there. The drain screws on your bike aren't coupled to the overflow tubes at the bottom of the bowls.  It's a 550, not 750.

From all of my reading of other threads, I am guessing that the advise will be to take the carbs apart and clean them and rebuild all the floats and seals, but I am very intimidated by this job. 

Many in this forum believe carb rebuilding is some sort of "rite-of-passage".  Or, if they had to suffer through it everyone else should, too.

I'm rather a minimalist.  Rebuild them if certain facts point to its necessity.
First drain each carb bowl and catch what comes out.  Is is clean?  Are there bits larger than 0.016 inch?   Particles larger than this can clog up slow jets.  If it looks like mud, brace your self for a carb clean.  Otherwise, get some carb cleaner in a spray can with one of those plastic tubes for the nozzle.  Poke this into the carb drain hole and spray a goodly amount in there.  Catch the drainage.  Two reasons; Carb cleaners can eat the paint off your engine case, and you want to know when crud stops coming out of the carb.  Flush each carb in this way.  Then turn on the petcock with the drain open and catch that too.  If you can get gas to come out clean from the drain hole, then move on to the next carb bowl.
When you've done them all, run the engine for effect of your efforts.  If Number 4 is still unhappy, you can then remove the float bowl from that carb, with it still on the bike, by removing four screws.  The inside of the bowl and carbs should be reasonably clean.  If not, then you have an obvious rebuild ahead of you.  Otherwise, unscrew the slow jet next to the main jet "tower".  Soak it in some of that carb cleaner and when you can see light through it after blowing through it, screw it back into the carb body and replace the bowl.
Run the engine for effect.  And, with a bit of luck it will run much better, and the headers should all get hot.

Worth a try.  If it doesn't work out, you'll still have to rebuild carbs.  But, if it does, you've saved some work and time.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Fish

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2006, 04:41:02 AM »
Lloyd,

What an awesome post!  I hope other noobs are reading this thread because that was some really practical advice.  As you said, I still may end up rebuilding, but at least now I have a place to start and know what to look for.  Thanks.

It was good to learn about how pulling an ignition lead will kill two cylinders, and that the carbs don't drain the way that my old cb650 did - both of these facts are a little encouraging because it explains things that I had thought were warning signs.

Now I'm excited to get out there and back to work  8)!

- Chad


Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2006, 10:11:57 AM »
One thing I forgot to add, is about the carb cleaners.  Many of the better ones also attack the orings in your carb (methylene chloride ingredient).  Orings can take a wash attack.  But not, say, a 2 or more hour soak.  I read here that Yamaha carb cleaner works well, and is safe for orings. But, I have not tried it yet.

And, If you're excited now, just wait 'till the engine runs like it should!  You'll be burning donuts in your back yard!

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Fish

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2006, 05:31:43 PM »
Hi all,
I went to the shop to buy the carb cleaner and the guy recommended the Yamaha product.  I thought that this was good because I have read other threads in which people speak fairly highly of it.  The problem is, it doesn't say carb cleaner, it says "combustion chamber cleaner" and describes spraying it into the carburator throat while the engine is running to clean out deposits inside the engine.  Here is a photo of the can:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e91/honda919/060628009.jpg

Is this the wrong stuff?  The parts guys swore it was for carbs...  ???

- Chad

Offline csendker

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,718
  • Chris; '75 CB550 & a Crusty 'ol boat
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2006, 06:33:59 PM »
The Yammy stuff everyone talks of is liquid in a bottle.  I seem to recall that it isn't available up in the Great White North.  The stuff you show is the spray-type stuff.
Actually runs --> 1975 CB550-K1
Projects ---> Crusty old boat
Gallery --> http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/Christopher/?g2_navId=xada3c7ff

Offline Fish

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2006, 06:51:46 PM »
Well how do ya like that?  Having ketchup flavored potato chips up here is not much compensation for not having the right carb cleaner  :P.
I was trying to find the spray type stuff because the procedure that twotired suggested required it, but I'm having doubts about whether or not my stuff is even for cleaning carbs... will it still work even though it says it's for the combustion chambers?

Cheers,
- Chad

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2006, 07:57:10 PM »
List the ingredients on the label.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline csendker

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,718
  • Chris; '75 CB550 & a Crusty 'ol boat
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2006, 08:44:29 PM »
"petroleum distillates and surfactant emulsifier"

that's the only stuff listed on the bottle of regular stuff...
Actually runs --> 1975 CB550-K1
Projects ---> Crusty old boat
Gallery --> http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/Christopher/?g2_navId=xada3c7ff

Offline Fish

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2006, 11:24:25 PM »
Petroleum solvent, petroleum gasses, oleic acid, methyl isobutyl carbinol, 2-butoxyethanol, and ammonia.
Whewee sounds like I got a better deal than you csendker.  Mine has more stuff in it  :P
(Doesn't sound as 'o-ring safe' as yours though...  :-\)
Waddaya think fellas?

- Chad

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #65 on: June 30, 2006, 12:43:05 AM »
methyl isobutyl carbinol, 2-butoxyethanol

I'm no chemist.  But, from what I have read, these are the aggressors in this solvent that would go after the gum deposits in the carb.  Pretty sure it will attack paint.  And, I suspect orings won't hold up to it very long either.  None of my carb cleaners have those ingredients.

It's up to you if you want to experiment.  If I tried it, I'd test it on an old oring I had laying around to determine it's withstand time.

I use Berryman B12 for a spray cleaner.  Pretty good cleaner, but not good for a long term soak of o rings you want to reuse (acetone, MEK, and Toluene).
I used to get stuff called Carb Medic (Gunk).  This stuff was fast.  It had methylene cloride in it that made it very agressive.   You didn't NEED to use it very long and it evaporated quickly after flushing away crud.  Kalifornia won't let us have it anymore.  They are worried about reducing the taxpayer base, I think.

Let us know what your decide.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Fish

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2006, 05:52:53 AM »
Twotired,
Thanks for the advise.  I am curious to try it out myself but if I do experiment, I think I'm at least going to do it with a product that claims to be carb cleaner.  I will probably take it back and look around for something else.  My o-rings may need to be replaced already but I don't want to take any unnecessary risks if I can avoid them. 
Besides, I don't want to void my warranty  :P :D

- Chad

Offline dusterdude

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,493
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2006, 08:57:16 AM »
tt,if you want a can of carb medic,let me know,ill ship one to you. ;D
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Firing on all 'three' cylinders !!??
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2006, 08:40:14 PM »
tt,if you want a can of carb medic,let me know, ill ship one to you. ;D

Sure, Mark.  Does it still have the methylene cloride in it?  If so, I'll get two cans.  I have'nt seen that stuff in years.   I'm down to the vapors in my last can.  What's it sell for there?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Fish

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Thanks csendker!
« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2006, 04:12:32 PM »
I just got home from camping and found the brake cylinder rebuild kit in the mail.  I think I now have everything I need to takle that job.

I also wanted to give a huge props to csendker for sending me a copy of the Honda shop manual.  I opened the envelope and was blown away to see that he had even bound it between two covers.  Thanks bro  8).

- Chad

Offline Fish

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Carb progress!
« Reply #70 on: July 05, 2006, 03:12:48 PM »
Update,
Well, after much thought (and a desire to do something), I decided to give that combustion cleaner a chance and tackle my carbs.  I pulled the float bowl off of #4 and was disgusted by what I saw.  The bottom was covered with rust colored cottage cheese.  I squirted the cleaner inside and after sitting for only a couple minutes, the whole mess was turned to liquid.  With only a little rubbing, the bowl was turned back to a shiny finish.  I pulled out the main jet - because it came out when I tugged at it - and it was completely plugged.  I cleaned it out, squirted some more cleaner around and then reassembled. 
The difference was like night and day.  The first kick instantly fired the bike right up!  Each time I tried to start it, it caught first time, every time.  The best news at all is that the #4 pipe was as hot as any of the others! 
Now, the bike still kinda runs like crap, but at least it's different than before and it's running like crap on all four cylinders  ;).
Now when it starts up, it races up to about 6000 rpm unless I fiddle with the choke and idle screw.  I am not able to get it to run smoothly in the lower rpms.  I think it is probably due to the fact that my slow speed jets are as gunked up as my main was.  I tried to take more apart but I couldn't tell which pieces came off or how.  All my manual says is 'remove this' or 'remove that'.  I tried pulling and twisting and everything seemed permanently attached.  I think what I will need to do is take the whole bank of carbs off and go through and clean each one.  After that, maybe take the bike to the shop to be tuned...
What do you think? 
Thanks for the help, I wouldn't have made it this far without you guys.

- Chad

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Carb progress!
« Reply #71 on: July 05, 2006, 04:16:02 PM »
You need a flat blade screwdriver to remove the slows jets.

Clean all the bowls like you did number 4, unscrew each of the slows and clean them until you can see light through the little hole deep inside the jet tube.  Most of what gets gunked up is below the bowl mount flange (the fuel level line, actually).  The only thing tough to get out of carb bodies that might be plugged up is the emulsion tube behind the main jet.  But, these sometime self clean after the rest is clean and the carbs are flowing fuel again.  Gasoline is a solvent, too, after all.

If you decide to remove the carb bank, many feel this is a difficult job.  It is a very tight puzzle these things fit into.  Disconnect all the cables and hoses.  Disconnect and move the engine breather hose out of the way.
Remove the bolts holding the air filter box to the frame.
Remove the band clamps entirely from the rear of the carbs. Then push the air box and filter box rearward as far as it will go.  (1/2 inch, you'll need it.)
Now loosen the band clamps on the front of the carbs, wrestle, twist, pull, the carbs rearward distorting the rubber couplers on the air box.
When the carbs have cleared the front couplers. Wiggle the carbs off to the left trying to be gentle and not destroy the rear rubber couplers they aren't easy to find.  Wooden or other soft tip probes can aid in pushing/folding the couplers out of the way.  I made an "L" hook out of round brazing rod to aid in rear coupler manipulation.
Putting the carbs back in is a reverse wrestle, taking care not to tear the rear couplers during installation.
When they are all the way into the forward couplers tighten those band clamps.  Then work the rear couplers onto the rear of the carbs, install and tighten those band clamps, then remount the air filter box.
Reconnect hoses and cables.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Fish

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Carb progress!
« Reply #72 on: July 05, 2006, 04:21:46 PM »
Thanks Lloyd,
If the odds point to the lower part of the carbs being the problem, I might just try and clean them all while still on the bike....
I thought that it looked like a pretty tight squeeze to get at the inner carbs but I may give it another shot.  Main jet and slow jet huh... I think I can do this.
I will report back with the result,

- Chad

Offline puppytrax

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,059
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Carb progress!
« Reply #73 on: July 05, 2006, 04:28:45 PM »
If you decide to remove the carb bank, many feel this is a difficult job.

Only the first time. After ten or twelve removals/replaces, it gets to be old hat...   ;D

I remove all the air filter boxes and battery & its frame. This lets the air chamber hang loose [after removing the carb booties], so you can maneuver the carbs around. When replacing the manifold rubber insulators, I put a real light wipe of Vaseline around the carb and manifold spigots...makes 'em slide in easier...   ::)
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline Fish

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: My 1975 cb550f thread. Carb progress!
« Reply #74 on: July 05, 2006, 06:33:08 PM »
Disaster!

I made such a stupid mistake removing the #4 slow jet - I turned the wrong way (upside down) and broke the slow jet off, leaving the threads still inside.
After that I removed the bank of carbs and cleaned the rest of the mains and slows. 
I hve been tempted to drill it out but I don't want to damage the throttle body itself.  I think I might just take it to a shop to have it removed.
On a side note, I'm pretty sure that the cleaner I am using is not o-ring safe.  I was wearing rubber gloves and when I went to tug on one of the fingers it popped right off.  Seems that they were eaten by the cleaner.  :o
I tried to rinse everything with gasoline after I was done, but I might get a new set of o-rings on order just in case.

- Chad