Author Topic: Trying to establish correct carb settings 500/550  (Read 2285 times)

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Offline Deltarider

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Trying to establish correct carb settings 500/550
« on: May 18, 2012, 12:50:18 PM »
Jagshemash!
I'm in the proces of gathering correct data for the stock carb settings for the CB500/500K1/500K2 and I hope you will help.
Are there any of you that have the needles in the 3rd (middle) position like we have in Europe?
Are there any of you that have the airscrews out 1 turn +/- 1/8?
Are there any of you that have other carbs than the 627B?
627A? Anyone?
022A? Anyone?
Can someone who owns that American Honda Motor Booklet (1977), please inform me what it says in the third column (CB-550F) under IDLE MIXTURE SCREW INITIAL SETTING (both lines please).
I have a scan, but unfortunately, when I zoom in, I can't see what it says, due to poor resolution.
Is there maybe something written or explained in a preface or whatever of forsaid booklet? Or on the cover?
What year was it that emission laws in US got tough? 1976? 1977?
Thank you all.
I might have a theory about forsaid booklet...
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 01:54:58 PM by Deltarider »
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72500john

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Re: Trying to establish correct carb settings 500/550
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2012, 04:13:57 PM »
did a little searching and found that the 77 model is 1 1/2 turns out..sorry did not find anything about the other. see what you mean about the picture..looks like the same setting thru the fuzz for the other models. hope this helps.
anyone else?

Offline trueblue

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Re: Trying to establish correct carb settings 500/550
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2012, 04:28:35 PM »
If that is the scan, you might just need younger eyes, to me it looks like it says :


       Idle mixture screw initial setting
         1 1/4 turns from closed position (cb-550f)
         1 1/2 turns from closed position (cb-550f, 76, 77)

I will not guarantee that is what it is, but it is what it looks like to me.
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72500john

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Re: Trying to establish correct carb settings 500/550
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2012, 04:52:23 PM »
thank you younger eyes!!

Offline 73CB500K2

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Re: Trying to establish correct carb settings 500/550
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2012, 05:40:53 PM »
Let me see:

I run my CB500K2 1973 with the needle jet clip in the middle and the idle mixture screws at 2 turns out.
73 CB500K2 Four 25K
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Trying to establish correct carb settings 500/550
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2012, 12:23:35 PM »
Aha, thank you very much. I've always wondered why the 500 carb settings in that American Honda Motor Booklet differed so much from settings elsewhere. It could be that the needle in the 4th groove was mistakenly copied from the 550K's settings, but there's more: airscrews 2(!) turns out conflicts with the 1 turn +/- 1/8 found elsewhere and seems pretty lean. 
OK, here's my guess. I think these settings were for the USA only. If I remember right tighter laws on emission concentrated on idle in particular. That could explain why American Honda had to publish these settings since they differed from the settings in the genuine Honda Workshop Manual. Why? To even make the 500 a less filthy bike at idle.
There are two more things that indicate this may be the case.
The booklet was published in 1977 and another thing is found in the third column where we read that the airscrews of the old 550F went from 1 turn +/- 1/4 to 1 turn +/- 1/2 for the 1976 and 1977 model. In itself this is strange, the old 550F and the 1976/1977 550F share exactly the same 069A carbs and have identical engines. It is as if that old 550F had to become less filthy too at idle for 1976 and 1977. What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 12:41:11 PM by Deltarider »
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Trying to establish correct carb settings 500/550
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2012, 11:51:38 AM »
Can anyone that owns that booklet tell if there's any info on the cover or in a preface. Can any of you scan it maybe?
What do you guys think of my Sherlock Holmeswork?
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Trying to establish correct carb settings 500/550
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2012, 12:40:54 AM »
Funny, I had expected more reactions. My guess is that 500s with their airscrews 2 turns out can't but accelerate poorly. Mine does that and with just one turn out accelerates as it should. So... how about it?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 12:43:41 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline dave500

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Re: Trying to establish correct carb settings 500/550
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2012, 01:23:11 AM »
my 550 with the solid screw is two turns out,the book lists a factory setting,you might find any bike even with stock jetting will run better with other than the factory setting anyway.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Trying to establish correct carb settings 500/550
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2012, 11:52:47 AM »
Quote
my 550 with the solid screw is two turns out,the book lists a factory setting,you might find any bike even with stock jetting will run better with other than the factory setting anyway.
Sure, if things like air traject or exhaust are altered. Altitude is another thing, and so is quality of gasoline. I just want to get rid of corrupted data. I maintain my presumption that data in that American Honda booklet have more to do with new emission requirements at idle than to guarantee a good allround driveability, but... it's a presumption.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Trying to establish correct carb settings 500/550
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2012, 01:51:05 PM »
I don't have the definitive answers you seek.. But, I'll share what info I have.
Below is the booklet cover and pages used by Honda that I have.  They were posted to this forum way back by (I don't know who). I don't have the CB500 pages.

Regarding emissions:
The EPA made the first actual mandates for the 1978 model year.  (Chart below from the EPA site)
I think it reasonable to assume that Honda was prior informed by the EPA, knew these mandates were coming, and began making changes to their machines, to see how close they could come to the specs by doing smaller changes to their machines as the years got closer.
I see the first change in 1974 US model year, with the introduction of the engine crankcase breather on the CB550.
Of interest, is the molded in numbers on the newly introduced Air cleaner box which is CB550-F.
The actual F model wasn't introduced to the US market until 1975.  But, not only did that model have the crankcase breather system and the same air filter box, but it also had the 4 into 1 muffler system that required the carbs to have leaner jetting and solid tipped air bleed screws for a more direct response to adjustment position.  The F models have slightly better MPG characteristics which is probably an artifact of the lower hydrocarbon output levels.  However, these changes could not make the F model configuration meet the 1978 mandates, so the model was discontinued for that year.  The CB550 F model only existed for US years 75-77.
Interestingly, the 1976 CB550K model had a change to the engine breather as a side step around the EPA exhaust mandates (still not enforced, but under their watchful eye for "spirit of cooperation".)  To reduce the hydrocarbons coming out the exhaust, the hydrocarbons were dumped into atmosphere directly, rather than out the exhaust where the sniffer monitored for total hydrocarbons.  The old style carbs also have a different set up (087a).  I have yet to see a physical example that was any different internally to the 022A set up.  But, then I don't have access to an unmolested 087a set, either.
In 77, the K model was revamped with different carbs (PD type with an IMS instead of the air bleed pilot screw) and a different 4 into 4 system with higher back pressure/smaller outlet size exhaust.  This allowed the lean burn mixtures at the carb to produce exhaust emissions within the EPA mandates even with the Crankcase breather system feeding hydrocarbons back into the engine induction.  However, the 78 CB550K was the last of the CB550 line in the US.
Of interest, is the 79 CB650, squarely under the scrutiny of the EPA.  Quiet exhaust (higher pressure) and PD style Carbs, but like the 77-78 Cb750 models, accelerator pumps were added.  This allowed the idle mixture to be leaned to the max, yet still get the required throttle twist response.
To bore you further, mechanical slide carbs were gradually phased out in favor of CV carbs, presumably these are easier to bring within EPA mandates, without accelerator pumps shooting raw gas into the carb throats for throttle response and enraging exhaust sniffers.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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