Author Topic: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines  (Read 7442 times)

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Offline lordmoonpie

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Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« on: May 31, 2012, 04:36:31 AM »
My vintage Keihins are proving the weak link in getting dependable running on the CR750 so I'm contemplating investing in a modern set of CR31s from SudCo. Has anyone got experience of running these carbs on a highly tuned engine? Got any base jet settings I can work from? I'd appreciaet any views before I splash the cash...thanks  ;D
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2012, 04:45:50 AM »
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Offline Doctor_D

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2012, 07:14:52 AM »
Simon:

Here's my last CR31 jetting.  It should be close.

65 slow jet
128 main jet
230 main air jet
YY7 needles, clip pos 5 (YY6's would get the needle to clip position 3 or 4 and would probably offer better throttle transition)
2.5 slide
mixture screw 1/2 turn
30mm velocity stacks (70mm stacks made 3-4 less horsepower on top, but built more torque between 5-8k)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 02:10:50 PM by Doctor_D »
Take care,
David
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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2012, 01:22:49 PM »
Simon:

Here's my last CR31 jetting.  It should be close.

65 slow jet
128 main jet
YY7 needles, clip pos 5 (YY6's would get the needle to clip position 3 or 4 and would probably offer better throttle transition)
2.5 slide
mixture screw 1/2 turn
30mm velocity stacks (70mm stacks made 3-4 less horsepower on top, but built more torque between 5-8k)
Thanks David you're a star - give me something to go on as a base setting if I go that route.

Sam - I haven't yet got a price from allens but I suspect they are going to be more expensive than sudco even allowing for import tax and shipping. Will give them a go though....I'll probably be wanting to pick your brains in the future too Sam - about very light things! I want to build an extremely light bike so need contacts for making carbon bits at sensible prices, possible protoype bits etc....I'm sure you record holders must know a thing or three about lightness :D
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Offline JohnN

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2012, 05:51:47 PM »
Simon:
 My CR31's came with YY8 needles which were way too lean so I agree with David on changing them. I had to raise them all the way and am in the process of replacing with YY6's. I won't be able to run it for two weeks but will give you an update if that is not too late. You may want to order your CR's with alternate needles.

I'm running 120 main jets which seem OK but may try larger after the needle change. I have only 761CC (ported/34mm intakes/cam etc) and I've heard of other big bores running 130 or larger.
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Offline JohnN

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2012, 11:49:02 AM »
I installed YY6 needles today on the 4th clip and found the same problem that occurred with the YY8 in the 4th postion; engine does not want to rev above 4000 RPM. Raised the YY6 all the way and problem solved, but I won't be able check the mid-range issue that occurred until I'm on the track in two weeks. I now wonder if I should heve ordered the shorter Y6 needle; has anyone made the switch to shorter needles?
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Offline Doctor_D

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2012, 03:06:22 PM »
I haven't, but I've thought about it.  I didn't have the same problem that you're having, but I'm still using YY7's in the 5th clip position.

In any case, I'd be willing to take the YY6's off your hands if you find the Y6's work.  You also may want to try a richer slide cutaway - like the 2.5.  Finally, Jeff is always happy to have nice bikes on the Twinline dyno.  Easier to diagnose the problem when you have a good A/F map to go off of.
Take care,
David
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2012, 03:11:36 PM »
I always found the 7 needles worked great as it allowed the right size main jet for top end. That was with a 915 kit.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2012, 06:21:06 PM »
I have a gallon of oil, rubber caps and clips for my sync ports and a day off  ;) New AGM battery is on the Tender. What should I do tomorrow?
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Offline JohnN

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2012, 07:34:58 PM »
Thanks David- I will try to schedule a dyno run.
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Offline Jim F

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2012, 09:14:54 AM »
Simon:

Here's my last CR31 jetting.  It should be close.

65 slow jet
128 main jet
YY7 needles, clip pos 5 (YY6's would get the needle to clip position 3 or 4 and would probably offer better throttle transition)
2.5 slide
mixture screw 1/2 turn
30mm velocity stacks (70mm stacks made 3-4 less horsepower on top, but built more torque between 5-8k)

How would these settings work for the street based on an 836 minus the stacks?
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Offline Doctor_D

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2012, 02:10:17 PM »
I'd go down two steps on the main if you're using a baffled 4 into 1 and filters.  Maybe drop the needle one clip and stay with the 240 main air (forgot to mention that I ran a 230 main-air jet).
Take care,
David
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Offline JohnN

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2012, 08:35:41 AM »
 I made it to the Dyno yesterday so I now have a laundry list of parts. Jeff at Twinline knows his way around the CR's but Initially we could not solve the midrange problem with the jets and needles I had on hand. Jeff swapped longer 70mm stacks for a significant improvement but still not enough. David stopped by to help assess the curves and was kind enough to loan me his CR31's that had 2.5 slides and that solved the problem. We had to reduce main jets from 125 to 122 for best midrange which dropped a couple of HP at top end (to 77). Later I will try Y7 needles and see if the 125's will work. So, for next weeks trip to the track I'll run David's carbs tuned as follows:
122 main jet
230 air jet
YY6 needle
2.5 throttle slide
70mm stacks

David- can't thank you enough for the help.

John
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Offline Doctor_D

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2012, 05:46:48 AM »
John:

My pleasure.  Good luck next weekend.
Take care,
David
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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2012, 11:14:28 AM »
Well, modern keihins sourced a la Doctor_D base settings and installed. Quick tweak tonight and I'll have a go at starting tomorrow. At least they can't piss petrol everywhere like the proper race keihins but will they lead to a more smooth running machine....only time will tell!
 ;D
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Offline Doctor_D

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2012, 01:01:58 PM »
Looking forward to your report.  Good luck.
Take care,
David
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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2012, 12:19:36 PM »
New carbs mean easy starting that's for sure. On the original Keihins it can take up to a minute (yes one minute!) to start the engine on the solo starter. I reckon it was 5 or six seconds with the new Keihins installed. It sounds better too, fuller more even noise less crackly but more snappy.

There's just one thing I'm not so happy about - Number One pot is smoking whereas the others aren't. Now this could be due to the fact that there was almost certainly a bit of a fuelling problem to that pot with the old carbs and so it could be assembly oil burning off that was already burnt off in the other three cylinders. However, I noticed that when I revved the engine and killed it, No. 1 carb was smoking heavily out backwards too. Again I suppose it could be assembly oil but could it be anything else - what do you HiPo gurus think? I seem to remember from my Honda twin racing days that one pot always always smoked more and think it was #1 but I can't remember.

The engine when not under load revs very very freely. It "idles" at about 5,500 rpm which seems a bit high even for a race motor to me but maybe I'm being too precious with it? I might see if I can adjust the slides to drop them down a bit and close them off. It revs super fast round to 10,000. I've got the rev limit set at 12,000 right now but might drop it back a bit for safety sake - any opinions on that guys?

So, two weeks from now and I have a track session booked to run it in. I've opted to drop back into the novice group anticipating all the niggles I'm going to have on the first track outing but hope to have everything dialled in by the end of the day and be having some fun!  ;D
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Offline Doctor_D

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2012, 02:31:22 PM »
It's easy enough to check compression and leakdown on the motor.  If cylinder 1 has a problem, it'll show up there.  If compression and leakdown are OK, it could be as simple as a valve-stem oil seal having popped off, or as bad as a guide being out of spec -- both would generally be more likely on the intake side, which is under vacuum and would naturally draw oil into the engine.
Take care,
David
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Offline johno

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2012, 02:08:12 AM »
I agree D,   any assembly oil was gone the first time you gave it a fistfull. Revving high rpm with no load on a new engine is not the best thing to do.

Every one has there own way of bedding in rings etc to get an optimum ring seal but the only way that can happen is under load, what ever way you choose to do it.   ( I only ever start a race engine on a dyno, in gear instantly and moderate load until operating temp is reached then go through a bedding in procedure)

This is the only way I know of  that I can achieve zero leakdown after the first hot set. ( assisted with torque plate honing, type of rings , bore finsh etc.     Any other technique I have ever used nets around 97 to 98% at the very best and down to low 90's % at worst.

I have regularly checked leakdown on new expensive race prepped engines at around 95% ( not mine)
At 95% when you check the fine print on the engine contracts they its OK. After the hot set I would never accept less then 97 to 98 % as being acceptable. If less start looking and listening for the the problem.
Re the oil smoke , would make me nervous !  it an only enter past seals , guide or rings

As D suggests .....do a leakdown test asap on all 4 cylinders and all will be revealed or peace of mind.
ciao Johno
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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2012, 05:10:59 AM »
Thanks for the input guys. While I'm confident the bores/pistons are matched and machined right, maybe there's a ring gap issue with a ring getting stuck in the piston groove - the thing has been oiled and sat around for a l-o-n-g time.

I also don't have a leak tester (yet!) so will start down the path this weekend of:

1. Check valve clearances, just in case that intake valve is a little off
2. Compression test, probably just on 1 and 4 but if I can get in there, I'll do 2/3 as well, probably cold dry first, hot dry next and then wet if any issues
3. If no other issues found, buy a leak tester

Will update y'all on progress :-)
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2012, 07:46:06 AM »
On 2 occasions I have seen excessive fuel in a newly built engine ruin ring seal (washes out the walls). I think if you were building to much crankcase pressure it would be blowing oil on all 4 cylinders but you never know. A leak down tester is a great tool Simon..... I use mine often especially on a freshly built engine (usually comes in at 3.5 to 4% with fresh bore/ring and valve job).
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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2012, 05:07:46 AM »
Thansk for the update Mike, much appreciated. I checked all the valve cleaarances last night and every one was spot on...except the inlet on No.1 pot which was about 1.5  thou too tight. So that is sorted, next to the compression test on Saturday.

What was interesting is that the plug that came out of No.1 was wet and smells of petrol, may be excessive fuelling is the cause as those old Keihins were, well let's say they were unpredicatable at best!

I'll get the compression results next and see if that points to anything but I'm thinking a leakdown tester will be a godo purchase. Oh and hey - it's my birthday tomorrow so I might buy one with the money I know my Mum has sent me :-)
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Offline johno

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2012, 05:19:51 AM »
 ;D Happy Birthday mate !  Only moms know the way to their sons heart.  dont forget to thank her , she'd be special  ;)

Take the day off from the bike and study the TT track,

ciao Johno
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Offline bear

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2012, 05:46:56 AM »
12 grand is awfully high for a Hy-Vo Simon.
I start cringing @ around 9 with ours. :)
A leak down tester is the go mate.
Cheep as chips.

Cheers,
Brian
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« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 06:39:15 AM by bear »
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Offline mick7504

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Re: Modern Keihin CR31s & HiPo engines
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2012, 05:53:38 AM »
Happy B/Day LMP - Simon

Well mate, if you've kicked 50 or more in the family jewells, here's one for ya.
I couldn't find a suitable Sir Winston Boogie Birthday song for you, so here's a bit of Home Grown instead.

Have a Good One Mate.

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