Author Topic: More Regulator/Rectifier Questions....  (Read 3972 times)

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Offline toread

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More Regulator/Rectifier Questions....
« on: June 01, 2012, 08:38:14 PM »
Hi all,

I'm new here, but have been lurking around reading for a while. I know that this subject has been covered many times on this forum, but I cant find any posts that cover quite this issue. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, so forgive me if this is a repeat.

BACKGROUND:

Just got a '77 CB550 FOUR K.  Its in good shape for the most part, but I took possession knowing that there was a charging system issue.  I assumed that it would be a regulator or rectifier issue, and after running some electrical diagnostics I concluded that it was one or the other, but wasn't intelligent enough to narrow it down further.  Regardless, I plan on doing a cafe conversion over the winter so I decided to buy a reg/rec combo to save buying one later when I need to compact the electrical systems under the seat.  I wired the used combo unit into the bike and rechecked the charging system.... Everything seemed to be working well. Hurray!

THE PROBLEM:

I left the bike overnight, and came back to find the battery completely drained.... I did some research and some phoning around and was told that the likely problem was that the battery is constantly powering the electromagnets in the stator which drains the battery even when the key is removed. 

There are 3 yellow wires from the alternator which I connected to the three yellow wires in the combo unit.  I attached greens to greens, one black to the black from the old regulator, and the reds to the reds. I have tried switching the reds around to see if I inadvertently mixed them up on the first install, but then the battery doesnt charge properly.  I have also tried to attach the rectifier positive to a switched circuit via the headlight fuse which runs roughly 12 V when the key is in, hoping that this circuit would power the alternator magnets only when needed, but this also causes a fault in the charging system.

I'm running out of ideas, and am starting to consider installing a switch on the side of the bike to cancel the connection from the batt to the alternator so that i dont have to ride around with a screw driver everywhere to disconnect the battery whenever i park it.

Any ideas on where I have messed up? is it a grounding issue perhaps? draining the battery to a ground? how would I trouble shoot that?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!


Offline Dyrden

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Re: More Regulator/Rectifier Questions....
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2012, 09:12:11 PM »
I think the black into the reg/rec needs to be switched power.  If its not switched youll be draining the battery.

Offline Bodi

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Re: More Regulator/Rectifier Questions....
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2012, 05:28:42 AM »
What combo unit did you use?
Even in a combo, the rectifier and regulator are entirely separate components.
The rectifier is a set of power diodes that convert the 3-phase AC alternator output to a form of DC to charge the battery and power the bike's electrical parts.
The regulator controls the alternator output. It does this by powering the alternator field coil when the battery voltage is low, and not powering it when the battery voltage is high enough: it switches the field coil power on and off repeatedly several times a second when all is well and the battery is charged. The field coil takes quite a bit of power.
The rectifier is connected directly (no fuse) to the alternator stator coil wires, a good ground, and to the battery "+" terminal. The diodes will only allow power to go into the battery, not out from it.
The regulator does not know if the engine is running. With a stopped engine, the alternator can not make power and the battery voltage will drop if any load is connected. The regulator will then naturally turn on the field coil and since there's no power being made to raise the battery voltage, it will stay turned on (and drain your battery). The stock regulator has three terminals: BAT, GND, FIELD. The BAT is power in, used to both measure the voltage for deciding if the field should be turned on, and to power the field coil. GND is of course ground, needed to measure the battery voltage. FIELD is to the field coil.
Some combo units have a 4 wire regulator. They add a separate wire used for battery voltage measuring and for the field coil power: connecting this directly to battery "+" improves the accuracy of the measurement - this wire does not need to be switched. There's another wire that powers the regulator's electronics for measuring battery voltage and controlling the field power.
The regulator power must be switched with ignition, or the battery will be drained into the field coil as it tries to generate power from a non-turning alternator. This is the BAT terminal on the OEM regulator which connects to the ignition switch (black wires are switched ignition power in Honda bikes).  For electronic regulators this is the control wire, not the battery wire: shutting off only the battery wire will cut off field coil power but you'll still be powering the regulator electronics - much less draw but still draining your battery when the ignition is off.
Electronic regulators use switching transistors to control the field coil. These can and do fail and become "leaky" - even though the electronic circuit is off the transistor can pass power to the field coil. If that's the case, when the control electronics power wire is disconnected, you will still have some power going to the field coil.
Aftermarket reg/rect units don't necessarily use the Honda wiring scheme so you have to look at the instructions to know which wire is which. Using a red wire for the direct battery connection to the rectifier is pretty standard though.
The least possible culprit is the rectifier. Since the stator coils are not grounded, even a bad rectifier can't drain the battery slowly back through the stator coil: they do sometimes fail (usually because of reversed polarity "jump-starting") and cause a high current "short" from bat "+" to ground but that will melt wires and smoke a lot, not just leave a dead battery overnight. It is very unlikely but still possible that a rectifier failure could drain the battery slowly.
If you don't have a meter you can check for power drain with a small 12V light bulb. With your ignition off, connect this bulb in between each of the reg/rect wire connections in turn with all the others connected. If the light lights - even dimly - the battery is being drained through that wire.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: More Regulator/Rectifier Questions....
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2012, 07:36:38 AM »
Dryden +1..... if that Black wire on your new reg/rect. is not switched on with the key, then your feeding the field coil 24/7 from the battery  :)
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline toread

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Re: More Regulator/Rectifier Questions....
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2012, 10:39:59 AM »
So the reg/rec that I bought was off of an old Yamaha. I didn't realize that the black from the regulator powered the field coils.  Upon having a closer look, the original Honda regulator  had one white, one black and one green.  I attached the black to black, green to green, and red from the new unit to the white on the bike. If I attached black to black, shouldn't that have been a switched circuit already? Or is the switch built into the regulator?

For a quick fix can I throw the black wire onto the headlight circuit? Or is there a more elegant solution that I'm missing?

Thanks for all your help! Can't tell you how much I appreciate the wisdom.

Offline strynboen

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Re: More Regulator/Rectifier Questions....
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2012, 11:08:36 AM »
there are 2 types og generators regulaters..one for permanent magenet system...most kawa and suzuki. it runs hole time and are svitch to frame/ground.  vhen it regulate...it kollaps the magenetic field,,, and the loading stopps
 and honda with elektro magenet who are turned on /off to regulate the load..
just so you got the right system?
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords

Offline Bodi

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Re: More Regulator/Rectifier Questions....
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2012, 11:57:12 AM »
This assumes Yamaha uses a color code the same as Honda: bad assumption.
What color wires are on it? Do you know the Yamaha model?

Offline toread

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Re: More Regulator/Rectifier Questions....
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2012, 05:33:24 PM »
Here are some pictures of the new(used) reg/rec.  I did some further digging around, but it seems that it is a Honda Reg/Rec after all. I'm not sure where the fellow at the bike scrap yard got Yamaha from, perhaps it was a slip of the tongue...

Either way, that sorts that out i think.

PICTURE 1:

The three wires on the left I had wired into the old regulator wires.  Green to Green, Black to Black, Red to White.

The three yellows and the other red and green I wired into the original plug from the regulator.

PICTURE 2:


The wires pulled up and to the left are the three I had wired into the Regulator wires.

Before I pulled it off to snap these pics i disconnected the black from this unit and temporarily wired it into the headlight circuit to see if there would still be a power drain on the battery with the key off; there was.  Anything out of the ordinary with the pictures? somewhere obvious that I goofed up? I am still wondering if it is a power drain to ground. If that was the case how would I trouble shoot it? hook it back up and test the flow through the green ground wires with the key off?

Thanks again.



Offline toread

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Re: More Regulator/Rectifier Questions....
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2012, 05:34:07 PM »
Picture 2: