Author Topic: How not to treat a starter motor. (Read 4373 times)

LesterPiglet · « **on:** June 28, 2012, 12:06:10 AM »

1977 Honda CB550 First Start

dave500 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 28, 2012, 12:24:22 AM »

wheres the hidden truck battery?

trueblue · « **Reply #2 on:** June 28, 2012, 01:26:33 AM »

Holy cooked commutator batman

also notice the run up to 5k on a dead cold engine, thats gotta be good for it.

Dimitri13 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 28, 2012, 01:39:42 AM »

oh my. I didn't think the entire video would be him cranking it.. I was HOPING it wasn't. But it was.

Ouch.

Raul CB750K1 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 28, 2012, 04:00:29 AM »

I would say it is not that bad for the starter motor as it is for the battery.

Motors are designed to spin. The big current draw happens at startup. There is not much difference in motor wear, whether you run it 10 runs of 3 seconds, or 30 seconds continuosly. The starter motor in these old hondas have planetary gears to improve torque. So, apart from some heating, I don't think cranking the starter for a long time would damage it.

The point is that everybody here had learned the hard way that you only have a few attempts before the battery dies, and if an engine doesn't start in the few turns, it won't regardless on how long you keep it cranking. If it doesn't start, you have to change conditions -choke, throttle etc- and start over. What I see in the video is a guy deeply discharging his battery, and cranking the engine hopelessly. Still something curious to watch....

jamesb · « **Reply #5 on:** June 28, 2012, 04:24:48 AM »

you know that battery cable had to be hot.and i agree with dave500 he had to have that hooked up to another battery or at least a battery charger on cranking position

trueblue · « **Reply #6 on:** June 28, 2012, 04:28:18 AM »

Quote from: Raul CB750K1 on June 28, 2012, 04:00:29 AM

I would say it is not that bad for the starter motor as it is for the battery.

Motors are designed to spin. The big current draw happens at start-up. There is not much difference in motor wear, whether you run it 10 runs of 3 seconds, or 30 seconds continuously. The starter motor in these old Honda's have planetary gears to improve torque. So, apart from some heating, I don't think cranking the starter for a long time would damage it.

The point is that everybody here had learned the hard way that you only have a few attempts before the battery dies, and if an engine doesn't start in the few turns, it won't regardless on how long you keep it cranking. If it doesn't start, you have to change conditions -choke, throttle etc- and start over. What I see in the video is a guy deeply discharging his battery, and cranking the engine hopelessly. Still something curious to watch....

Are you serious, a battery will recover from one deep discharge, but a starter that has been overheated won't although continually deep cycling a battery that isn't a deep cycle battery will damage it. You obviously haven't pulled a starter apart that has been wound too long, the insulation on the wires in the armature cooks off and shorts out, not only that the resins that hold the commutator together can soften and the segments can get pulled out by the brushes, break the brushes and generally make a mess of things. The starter has no form of cooling system and is only designed to be run for a short period of time, 10 secs at the most, with a decent cool down period between, not a minute of non stop winding.

72 yellow · « **Reply #7 on:** June 28, 2012, 04:44:18 AM »

Notice how bright the headlight stays during this ordeal ?

Johnie · « **Reply #8 on:** June 28, 2012, 05:28:19 AM »

Wow...I must be spoiled. I have never had a bike take that long to start even after sitting for 20 years.

singedebile · « **Reply #9 on:** June 28, 2012, 05:51:39 AM »

its hard to tell in the video but I think he discovers the bike has a choke 3 sec before starting it up

lucky · « **Reply #10 on:** June 28, 2012, 09:37:14 AM »

Too painful to watch.

NewOldSchool · « **Reply #11 on:** June 28, 2012, 09:41:27 AM »

Longest I've ever held the starter button is 5 seconds. Then 15 to 30 seconds rest, then 5 seconds again.

I do this to prime the motor with the ignition off after an oil change.

FrankenFrankenstuff · « **Reply #12 on:** June 28, 2012, 09:43:56 AM »

I used to have an International ScoutII truck...and I would put it into gear turn the key using the starter to move it around. Ah, so young and dumb..but handsome. DARN handsome.

Bodi · « **Reply #13 on:** June 28, 2012, 10:15:19 AM »

"normal" motors will run all day at low load. the starter motor is not normal. electric start was thought to be impossible because the starter motor would be as big and heavy as the gas motor. cadillac figured out that you can build an electric motor with incredible torque but very low duty cycle. to get that much torque you need a very strong magnetic field, so the rotor and stator field coils run at insane amperage. a starter motor will cook itself in very few minutes - regardless of the mechanical load.

MCRider · « **Reply #14 on:** June 28, 2012, 11:01:30 AM »

TURN ON THE GAS!!

or

TURN THE KILL SWITCH ON!!

MCRider · « **Reply #15 on:** June 28, 2012, 11:09:04 AM »

I couldn't sit thru the whole vid first time. Sonow i see it was the choke.

Raul CB750K1 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 28, 2012, 11:10:03 AM »

Bodi and trueblue you give very good points. It is true that the key here is "duty cycle" and that the starter motor has no way of cooling -that being said, it is usually very hot by the engine heat transferred via induction-. Yeah, after reading your comments, I accept that a starter motor can't work just as a washer motor. In the other hand, cranking this multi-cylinder bikes by feet is not that hard as the compression to overcome isn't high, and once the crank is spinning, momentum helps, taking into account the de-multiplication provided by the planetary gears and by the sprocket ratio of the starter motor, I still feel that keeping a starter motor cranking for 30 sec or even one minute wont' do it much harm, but it is just a feeling I have not backed up by any kind of data.

A sad vision in any case. As I said, if the bike doesn't start in the first attemps, it won't do it later, so no point in insisting...

MCRider · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2012, 11:13:59 AM »

That's right Raul. If it doesn't start pretty much right off, then its time to look around. In this case the choke. Which is part of the MSF starting drill. I don't remember the mnemonic, but it includes choke.

bollingball · « **Reply #18 on:** June 28, 2012, 11:32:19 AM »

I could not help it I started laughing so bad I had to go to the bathroom. What an idiot. I think it had to be plugged into something.

Ken
PS I can not believe he put it on the web to show how stupid he is.

TwoTired · « **Reply #19 on:** June 28, 2012, 11:59:00 AM »

If the bike was purchased cheaply (or obtained for free), it doesn't matter how much abuse is given to it. It's just cheap fun to occupy the bored and foolish.

If the machine accumulates more broken/damaged bits, well it wasn't any good anyway. (I think that is the modern philosophy, isn't it?)

fmctm1sw · « **Reply #20 on:** June 28, 2012, 12:17:11 PM »

Idles perfectly!

dave500 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 28, 2012, 12:22:51 PM »

theres no planetery gears in these starters?maybe he warms the engine up from starter heat first?

LesterPiglet · « **Reply #22 on:** June 28, 2012, 12:36:02 PM »

Own up, who is it?

I just copied this from his writeup. "After reading up on the SOHC forums about other people drilling their own rotors, I was pretty confident I was up to the task."

dave500 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 28, 2012, 12:39:40 PM »

look in the parts wanted section"starter motor wanted".must not be on fire.

sir funk · « **Reply #24 on:** June 28, 2012, 12:54:10 PM »

Quote from: LesterPiglet on June 28, 2012, 12:36:02 PM

Own up, who is it?
I just copied this from his writeup. "After reading up on the SOHC forums about other people drilling their own rotors, I was pretty confident I was up to the task."

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?action=profile;u=21103

News:

Author Topic: How not to treat a starter motor. (Read 4373 times)

bollingball