Author Topic: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?  (Read 6351 times)

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Offline TwoTired

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Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« on: June 30, 2012, 03:23:09 PM »
Goal:
Trying to convert from bronze bushings to roller bearings.

Bearing I.D. requires .001 taken off the shaft diameter.  From .249 to .248 inch.
 Shaft is a stainless steel material of unknown composition.
Shaft is about 2.5 inches long. One half inch of it must remain .249 where a pulley mounts.  So, this end goes in the chuck.

I have a Smithy (don't laugh).  I've used the mill and drill portion for many years.  Never had much success with the lathe.

I have the cutting bit centered on the shaft axis.  Since I must cut to very end I can't support the end opposite the chuck.

I can't get the bit to chip out metal unless there is a LOT of pressure placed from bit to metal.  It's a carbide cutter head.  Came with the Smithy.

If I glide in from the end it sorta starts cutting then stops during the traverse, leaving me with a taper to the shaft.  I assume the rod is deflecting.

If I come in from the side, it doesn't even begin to cut until there is about .20mm dialed in to the cross slide, which would be a .007 cut.

I'm no having much luck teaching myself to operate a lathe.  I can't tell if its my poor technique, or the machine I'm using can't do what I want.

It all seems straightforward. Yet, I get no satisfaction.  Is this something that must be ground?  Do I need a different cutter?  Something magic about RPM or feed rate?
Any tips pointers or observations?     Does a squeal mean anything (I am using Cutting fluid)?  Seems to rubbing, but not cutting.

Thanks,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2012, 04:01:49 PM »
I wish I could help Lloyd, but my experience has been aluminum and SS if way different.
I'll check in to fee what 754 has to say.

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Offline Sparked

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2012, 04:32:29 PM »
If your only taking off. 001" then don't try cutting it, especially if it is unsupported. Use some emery cloth to polish it down to size. Go slow and carefully so you don't taper the shaft and you'll be fine. 240grit should work, then a scotchbrite pad to get a nice surface finish.

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2012, 05:05:12 PM »
Back to the basics. It is always cutting speed or/ and geometry. Do you have a piece to experiment with?
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Offline kmb69

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2012, 06:09:06 PM »
Lloyd, Not knowing the grade of stainless makes it more difficult, but here goes. The "rubbing" and "squealing" might indicate the tooltip is too high. Try adjusting it to .005-.010" below centerline of workpiece. The tool nose radius should probably be in the .0075" range, fairly sharp, for the fine cut you are trying to take. Unless it is a cast workpiece, you should really be getting a stringer type shaving as opposed to chips on a cut that fine. The heavy tool pressure required may indicate another issue related to "work hardening" the work piece as certain stainlesses are notorious for this. This happens when the tool drags or rubs (above centerline) on the material essentially hardening the surface to some depth from the heat and/or burnishing effect. 70CB750 is correct in suggesting a test piece. Try the operation on a similar size carbon steel rod. General rule of thumb on less precise machines and unknown carbide cutter grade would be 250 surface feet per minute spindle speed at .005 inch per revolution feedrate. 250 SFPM on .250 diameter would be about 3,820 RPM. Definitely use steady stream of cutting fluid. Good luck and give me some feedback. Regards, Keith

Offline scottly

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2012, 06:49:24 PM »
Goal:
Trying to convert from bronze bushings to roller bearings.


Shaft is about 2.5 inches long. One half inch of it must remain .249 where a pulley mounts.  So, this end goes in the chuck.

I have a Smithy (don't laugh).  I've used the mill and drill portion for many years.  Never had much success with the lathe.

I have the cutting bit centered on the shaft axis.  Since I must cut to very end I can't support the end opposite the chuck.

 Is this something that must be ground?  Do I need a different cutter?  Something magic about RPM or feed rate?
Any tips pointers or observations? 
Thanks,
The part is hanging too far out of the chuck, without support from a dead center. One option is to use a longer piece of stock, then trim off the excess after the precision work is done.
Even properly supported, and with proper speeds, feeds, and tool angle, the finish would not be fine enough for a needle bearing to ride directly on. Sparked's suggestion would be the better option, IMHO.

PS I would never laugh at another man's tools. Lot's of guys here would love to have that Smithy! ;D   
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Offline Sparked

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2012, 10:57:23 PM »
Is the. 248" dimension needed for the needle bearings themselves or for an inner race for the bearings? If there is no inner race between the bearings and the stainless shaft I wouldn't recommend the mod. Stainless steel is not "hard" enough to be used as a bearing race. Is this a swing arm modification? If so there are better materials to use as replacement bushing then needle bearings IMHO. I don't think needle bearings should be used in a non rotary application. A swing arm only has a small range of motion, not a full 360°. If you are going to use the needle bearings still, make sure you fit an inner race onto the shaft.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2012, 01:17:21 AM »
I've absorbed the comments made.  And, I thank you all for them.

I will likely try the sand paper method, on my next try.  I think I tried this already a couple years ago and still ended up with the end of the shaft tapered. This causes problems with the crank rod alignment.

This project isn't for a motorcycle.  (And, why I put this in the open forum.)  I'm trying to modify a piston pump that uses an electric motor.  A dynamaster supreme, of which I have three examples. I'm also trying to teach myself to use a lathe.  ::)

The shaft(s) previously spun in bronze bearings.  But, once the bearings wear, they get both a main bearing knock and rod bearing knock, become noisy and rattle.   I can no longer get repair parts for it as they they've been out of production for about 15 years, and my cache of spare components is now depleted. I'd like to use the existing shaft with caged bearings that include both inner and outer races.  I'm not using the shaft itself as a roller race.

I do have a K&S 1/4 S.S. rod I bought at a hardware store.  It is .250 diameter.  I just cant seem to get end of it center punched accurately for my live center.

I had to look up "tool nose radius".  But, the cutting bit I have is square ended (it came with the Smithy).  I've wondered about what to get as replacements or upgrades.  I just haven't yet gotten a good grasp on what to shop for.

I'll take another crack at it tomorrow and see about lowering the cutter below center line.
If you think it might help, I can post some pictures.

Thanks all for your comments.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline 754

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2012, 01:22:34 AM »
 First off , sounds like tool has lost its edge or a height problem.
 Usually there isd always "a Way" to support the end of work, but  you have to really think it out.
 If you dont know the easy way to find centre height, say so, there is an easy effective tip.
 As mentioned removing a Thou is maybe easier sanding.
 Its harder to take off 2 or three thou, than 20.. generally speaking..
 If you want deadnuts concentricity, turn a mandrel and press on the work..
 Small dia turning on small lathes is often easier with HSS than carbide..
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Offline trueblue

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2012, 04:20:53 AM »
Small dia turning on small lathes is often easier with HSS than carbide..

+1, carbide tips are really blunt as hell, compared to a good HSS tool.  As for trying to centre pop the end of the shaft, use a small centreing drill in the lathe to get it centred, then put a centre on it.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2012, 05:01:28 AM »
Any chance of tool post grinder?  Even rigged one from rototool would work.
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Offline kmb69

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2012, 07:20:18 AM »
Lloyd, That square ended cutter will never cut it. Too much tool pressure required. You might try mounting a file in your tool post to get an even "grind" or "filing" if you will. Or any square block to use as backing for sand paper, etc to try to prevent taper. Part of the taper problem may be "push off" toward the end of the workpiece farthest from the chuck that is least supported. Best, Keith

Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2012, 09:06:48 AM »
If your only taking off. 001" then don't try cutting it, especially if it is unsupported. Use some emery cloth to polish it down to size. Go slow and carefully so you don't taper the shaft and you'll be fine. 240grit should work, then a scotchbrite pad to get a nice surface finish.

Sent from my Atari

+1 .. I had a job a while back in a machine shop polishing carbide punches that make beer cans! Amongst other things of course. Besides finishing to a 4 microfinish (like a mirror) I was also responsible for bringing it to size within .00025" ... Started with a piece that was a couple of thou over. We had a lapping machine (two cylinders with diamond compound and a lever to apply pressure) to bring it closer to size. And then finished on a lathe with tube braided copper wire over a balsa wood stick and various grades of diamond compounds. And of course a good micrometer and eye loop for the surface finish inspection.

I also had to size the leading radii perfectly (like that shape of the bottom of stackable beer cans) ... but that's another story ;) Profilometer fun!

Based on that experience... I'd have to agree... the emory is the way to go.. frequent checking... and just a little patience.
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Offline 754

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2012, 09:25:41 AM »
 DJ, can you tell us more.. always wondered what the blanks look like before drawing, how they anodize so cheaply, what material, how much it thins, etc, etc..
 Worked at a brewery a few months last year, am familiar with the lidding process.. The one size of cans they used 500ml, were coming from I think England, not very heavy pallets..
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2012, 12:35:52 PM »
Lloyd, That square ended cutter will never cut it. Too much tool pressure required. You might try mounting a file in your tool post to get an even "grind" or "filing" if you will. Or any square block to use as backing for sand paper, etc to try to prevent taper. Part of the taper problem may be "push off" toward the end of the workpiece farthest from the chuck that is least supported. Best, Keith

I believe you.  I did one of these shafts a couple years ago.
The very end tapered, the next portion along the traverse didn't cut much at all, and the closer I got to the chuck, the more metal was removed.  By the time I got the diameter down to allow bearing installation, the "root" was .003 undersize. 
I did finish off the "hump " in the shaft with a file.  Of course, that shaft rattled in the roller bearings just as bad as it did in the worn out bronze bearings.  ::)

I'm inexperienced when fitting the cutter.  It took me years to learn it was supposed to be on turn center.  Now, I know that my tool post "bed" is 11.5mm from tail stock center.  So, I gauge/shim my cutter head based on that.  But, the catalogs don't list what the cutter's height from bed is.  And, there aren't any supply shops to walk in a measure them.
The Smithy came with no set up instructions at all.  It is not a purchase I would make again.  I would spend more for a better quality tool.  I bought several books hoping to build up basic operational knowledge.  But never found one addressed toward the total neophyte and certainly not one that addressed inherent machine deficiencies.
I don't like to blame to the tool for failed operation.  However, I also know that playing a guitar with a warped neck limits what can be performed on the instrument.  And lead tipped screwdriver will not allow even a master to remove ordinary screws.


To others:
I'm surprised at the recommendation of using HSS cutters on Stainless.  I though that was a no-no as they lose their edge faster than carbide and often mid cut.  Further, I suspect these shafts may have been originally surface hardened (or hardened in some way, so the bronze would wear, and the shafts not.  Planned restoration would have been to simply replace the bronze.  I just don't know where to get replacement bronze, anymore.  Anyway, I thought roller bearings would be an upgrade.


I now have a suspicion that my center post is not in alignment with chuck center.   The build quality on my Smithy is not very good.  Cross shaft screws bind unless there is quite a bit of play in the dials (like half a turn).  I can only use them if I bear in from one direction.
As a complete newb, I simply had no idea what to look for in quality when I bought the machine.  So, there are many things about it that I slowly discover should have been repaired or replaced under warranty, now long since expired.

Anyway, I think I have now ruined yet another shaft, and will likely have to make another from the .250 stock I have.  So, I'll sand off .002 instead of just .001.

Once more...into the breech.

Thanks all,  :)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2012, 12:37:34 PM »
If you dont know the easy way to find centre height, say so, there is an easy effective tip.
I'm self taught, so I may have it wrong.
I'm willing to listen.

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2012, 12:39:40 PM »
As for trying to centre pop the end of the shaft, use a small centreing drill in the lathe to get it centred, then put a centre on it.
I temporarily "lost" my small centering bits.  But, I have them in hand now for the next foray.

Thanks,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2012, 12:45:35 PM »
Any chance of tool post grinder?  Even rigged one from rototool would work.
I don't have a tool post grinder.  I expect I may still be missing routine and essential machine shop tools.  I'm my own apprentice. ;D
Anyone make/sell a machine shop kit?  :-\

By rototool, you mean a Dremel type?  I don't think the cutter bits have the "reach" to traverse the entire shaft length on a parallel axis.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline 754

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2012, 12:52:36 PM »
Hold a flat piece like a ruler that is not hardened, betwixt cutter tip & workpiece..at the point it is on center the ruler will stand straight up!.. any deviation in angle tells you which way to compensate..

 Some chucks do not grip fully if there is a bit of wear, which allows even greater deflection on thin workpieces... Rule of Thumb..if work hangs out 5XDia.. ie 1.25 on .25 material the end should be supported. Centre drilling both ends of a piece, and turning between centers, may solve your problem.
 How To Run A LATHE.. by South Bend Lathes will give you scads of info...
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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2012, 12:56:53 PM »
 Cutting Speed for a lot of SS  is around 50-60 SFPM.
 So your CS x 4  dived by Dia.. gives you..approx1600 rpm with High Speed steel tool
 HSS tools can be ground a tweaked for application, far easier than carbides..
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Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2012, 02:04:41 PM »
DJ, can you tell us more.. always wondered what the blanks look like before drawing, how they anodize so cheaply, what material, how much it thins, etc, etc..
 Worked at a brewery a few months last year, am familiar with the lidding process.. The one size of cans they used 500ml, were coming from I think England, not very heavy pallets..
They we're made out of a solid carbide sleeve with about a 1/2" wall thickness. .. but that was hmmm... 28 years ago! oh my.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2012, 04:10:22 PM »
My center drill merely polished the end of the shaft to show where the center would be if it had actually made the cut.
I slowly increased the pressure to get a cut started and the tip broke off the center drill... same thing happened on the second try.
I tried a center punch and it flattened the end of punch.  I guess the steel is pretty tough.  :-\

I did sandpaper the shaft so the main m bearing now fit.  Now the task is to get the rod pin to again sit parallel to the shaft.  The pin is pressed into a round of brass about 1/4 thick.  The round has a set screw to lock to the main shaft.  However, that mount surface is now rounded, and this kants the rod shaft.

I think I may go back to building things electronic or stick with wood projects.  ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Sparked

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2012, 06:31:26 PM »
Can you post a picture, or a sketch of what your trying to do?
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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2012, 07:07:36 PM »
My experience with stainless steel is that you seldom know what you have.  There are many alloys, and it seems most don't machine worth a damn.  There is a reason why stainless steel firearms such as revolvers took so long to come along, and why there were so many problems with the first ones that came out.  Stainless steels can be a #$%* to machine.

It sounds like the stock you are trying to work is too hard.  It sounds as if it should be ground.  Difficult to do precisely if you are not set up to do it.  I've cobbled together set ups before, and by the time I was done, considering rejects and time and material wasted, I would have been ahead taking it somewhere to have it done.  But I understand why you would want to do it yourself.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Can any lathe masters tell me what I am doing wrong?
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2012, 08:11:18 PM »

I now have a suspicion that my center post is not in alignment with chuck center.   The build quality on my Smithy is not very good.  Cross shaft screws bind unless there is quite a bit of play in the dials (like half a turn).  I can only use them if I bear in from one direction.

It's normal practice to feed the tool in from only one direction, note the current position of the dial, then retract the tool past the backlash, reposition to the start of the cut, then feed the tool back in to the same dial setting + the desired amount of the next cut. There will always be some back-lash in any Acme-screw type of mechanism, whether good old American iron or Chinese pot metal. Some of the back-lash can be adjusted/shimmed out, but there will always be some. If you have a dial indicator, there are some tests you can do to verify the concentrically of the chuck, as well as the alignment of the headstock and the tail-stock.
I would recommend getting some round aluminum stock, as large as what will fit through the through-hole in the chuck, and cut some chips. Nothing fancy, just get a feel for how the bit cuts the metal... 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 08:13:56 PM by scottly »
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