Topic: Clutch Advice Needed ** RESOLVED! **

[1974cb550k]

I also have the APE extra plate kit. I measured mine and compared it to my oem steels and frictions i remoced and they were identical in height. I found my basket was not corrently alligned and thats why i had no clutch. Read this post if you havent. I feel for ya. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=98106.0

[lucky]

I think you need to get some help from a mechanic.
Better clean the oil sump pan, and check the filter for metal.
I would drain all of the oil including the oil tank, and then clean the oil tank and clean the oil lines from the engine to the tank. Get a new oil filter too. Not kidding.

[BrockSamson]

I am not going to get help from a mechanic.  This is something I feel I can resolve and I would rather have a better understanding of what is going wrong than just pass the problem off and never know what was causing it.

I received the new part, other than being a bit dirty (strange that it wasn't dirty in the ebay picture, whatever) it looks in great shape.  The lock nut and adjuster also look great which is a huge improvement over the one I brutalized.  I think I am going to put the cracked clutch cover on display to remind myself to pay attention to detail when working on these old machines.

Lucky, great advice.  With that split in the cover there is a good chance I have a bunch of metal shavings in the basket.  I still haven't had time to get to the bike, pull the cover off and examine the damage.  I will drain the oil and check the filter as suggested.  I have no problem putting that extra effort in given that oil is a minor expense.

I am going to take some time to get a good parts diagram so I can account for each piece of the puzzle.

Hopefully if work doesn't keep me late I am going to pull all the parts and post measurements.  I also think it will be helpful to post the old spring and friction plate measurements as well.  If the lifter plate wasn't destroyed or any other parts mutilated (and I have time) I will make an attempt to put everything back together. 

As usual, thank you for all the feedback and advice.  I am dying to have that moment where I find the obvious reason things were not working... even more so I can't wait to get on the road.

[BrockSamson]

Will be using the following to account for all the parts:

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb750k7-four-usa_model14395/partslist/E09.html#results

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb750k7-four-usa_model14395/partslist/E08.html#results

[lucky]

Sorry to hear that it happened to you.
I am sure you will figure it out.

You seem determined and detail oriented.

[BrockSamson]

Well Lucky, you called it.  Aluminum shavings all around the inside of the clutch cavity (I don't know what else to call it, where the clutch basket assembly goes).  They came from the pressure plate.  I spent the last 4 hours cleaning out every little piece I could see. 

I will be draining the oil, putting new oil in and a new filter.  Then just as a precaution I will be draining the oil again after a couple hundred miles with a new filter. 

Oh, the pressure plate was cracked too.  I think I found one on EBAY (well an entire clutch basket and associated parts), but waiting to hear back from the seller.  Does anyone know if all the 750K pressure plates are the same?  I might have one from a 78 and I know that will work, but if that falls through do I have to stick to the K6-K8 or can I get one from the K1-K5?

I didn't get around to measuring anything because I spent the entire time finding aluminum shavings and cleaning it out.

Oh well.  I will keep marching forward.  I did put on my point plate gasket (discovered there was never one there at all) so I feel like I made some sort of progress for the day.  sigh.

[HondaMan]

Well Lucky, you called it.  Aluminum shavings all around the inside of the clutch cavity (I don't know what else to call it, where the clutch basket assembly goes).  They came from the pressure plate.  I spent the last 4 hours cleaning out every little piece I could see. 

Oh, the pressure plate was cracked too.  I think I found one on EBAY (well an entire clutch basket and associated parts), but waiting to hear back from the seller.  Does anyone know if all the 750K pressure plates are the same?  I might have one from a 78 and I know that will work, but if that falls through do I have to stick to the K6-K8 or can I get one from the K1-K5?

The "X"-shaped top pressure plate is the same for all years after the K1, and the replacement part fits the K1, too (it is thicker than the K0/K1, now).

[BrockSamson]

Thanks!  I picked up an entire 1978 clutch basket just in case I break something else. 

[1974cb550k]

I have an xtra pressure plate if you need one.

[BrockSamson]

Thanks 1974cb550k  looks like I will be good to go, but if I need another I will shoot you a PM.

The K8 clutch basket came in.  Looks to be in good shape in regard to the parts I care about (lifter and pressure plate).  Although there are a couple parts rattling around inside of it, a washer or something.   I plan on sneaking out of work and hopefully getting to the bottom of this clutch tonight.

Going to buy a few gallons of Rotella T 15-40 on my way to my pals' garage and get to it.

[BrockSamson]

Ok, I am exhausted so forgive any incoherence.  I am going to do my best to explain where I am currently at with this, I am going to be very detailed and walk through each step I took.  I am also going to bold anything I was unsure and would like an answer on. 

-Received new clutch case cover to replace the one that cracked.

-Received new pressure plate to replace the one that cracked.

-Removed all the aluminum metal shavings from the basket cavity and drained oil.

-With all clutch basket parts removed I accounted for all of the parts with the diagrams I referred to earlier.  All parts there.

-I removed that extra metal plate that I had jammed into the stack and placed it to the side. 

-Removed each of the plates and friction plates.  Reapplied liberal amounts of oil to each one before replacing them back into the stack.

-Put the clutch back together.  The pressure plate sat funny the first time, rotated it and it sat nicely. 

-Put the heavy duty APE springs in and started to bolt down the lifter plate pressure plate.  Instructions read to bolt down until "snug" so I decided to only use a long socket and hand tighten with that in a cross pattern until snug.  I know that the lifter plate has been known to be made of "cheese" so this seemed the safest way to tighten it down.  Could I have not tightened this enough?

-Put the clutch cover gasket on and put on the new (to me) clutch cover.  Fit nice and snug.

-Broke loose the adjuster lock nut (it needed some convincing).

-Slacked out my entire clutch cable.  Slack at the lever and a the clutch case cover.

-With the nut two turns out and the screw all the way out I hold the nut with a wrench and with a flat head screw driver I started to turn in until it stopped.  It stopped with a couple threads out!  I backed it out 1/2 turn from where it stopped.  I hold the screw in place with the flat head screw driver and tighten the adjuster lock nut.  Seems we are past the weird adjustment screw issue.

-With all the slack in the clutch cable I decide to put it in neutral start the bike up and let it warm up and make sure oil levels are good.  Good oil levels and oil pressure light turned off very quickly.

-I pull the clutch lever and there is some resistance so I hold it in while giving the engine some RPMs.  This pumps oil into the clutch basket... right?.

-While holding the front brake and clutch lever (don't want the bike to fly away from me)... I drop it into first.  It lurches forward suddenly and bike dies. 

-Decide that maybe I need to pull some more slack out of the cable because its obvious pulling the clutch lever is not doing much.

-At the clutch cover I work out some slack and get a much firmer clutch lever feel.  I also back out the adjuster knob a little bit at the clutch lever.

-Try to put the bike in first while holding in the clutch lever and it lurches forward but its not as violent and the bike stays running, quite a bit of drag here.

-I back out the clutch cable even more.  At this point there is no "slack", my adjustments are on an already pre-loaded arm and it is moving the arm. 

-Bike doesn't lurch forward but there is drag.  I also can't get the bike into neutral with the draggy 1st gear.  I have to turn the bike off... and I sometimes have to roll the bike forward and back within the range of a foot to get it to click into neutral.

-I adjust out even more.  Same exact results, draggy first gear and can't get out of first gear into neutral.

-I decide that I want to take it around the block.  The drag isn't bad to the point where it is killing the bike.  I put on my gear, hop on the bike and drop it into first.  There is drag but as I release the lever she starts to move forward.  I give about 30% throttle and what I can only describe as clutch slippage, I was not accelerating as quickly as I should have been and the RPMs were shooting up.  This is exactly as bad as the slippage was before I put the APE clutch plates and springs in.  I try to go into second and I have to force the lever, its clunky.

-I pull over.  I adjust the clutch at the lever (in the direction as if I was reducing slack).  I do not see much of a difference.  Clutch is slipping in 2nd gear as well as I head back towards the garage.

-It is dark, I decide to roll the bike into the garage, grab a beer and call it a night.

I am at the point where I can take this clutch apart and put it back together blindfolded.  Despite the frustration I am really enjoying myself, so no worries there.  So what do you guys think? 

Also I keep coming back to this thread and wonder if I am doing something stupid with my clutch adjustment to cause the slippage:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=69523.0

Thank you to everyone helping me out, it is very much appreciated.

[HondaMan]

Try this with the adjuster nut (and with plenty of slack in the cable):

Loosen the nut and turn the screw in until it stops, then back out just 1/8 to 1/4 turn from there, not 1/2 turn. This will more closely match the original setting: turn in until stopped, then back out until there is barely slack (in the screw). This gives maximum 'authority' to the cable adjustment, which is proper. Then, adjust the handle lever's slack nut (at the handlebar) just 1 turn out from full "in" position. Last, use the long adjuster on the cable (at the case) and take up slack until the lever moves 1/2" to 3/4" slack at the outer ball end.

When you pull in the properly-adjusted clutch, there should be a slight feeling of more resistance to your pull at the beginning, which will become slightly less after about 1/2" of lever travel. It has a feeling of going "over center" to disengage when adjusted just right.

[BrockSamson]

Thanks HondaMan, I will give that a shot tonight.  I read in one place that it should be one full turn, read in another it should be half and another 1/4.  I will go with 1/8 and see what kind of results I can get.

How do you go about tightening the lifter plate bolts?  How tight would you describe yourself as going with those?

Does pulling in the clutch and raising the RPMs on the bike dump oil into the clutch basket?

[MCRider]

Thanks HondaMan, I will give that a shot tonight.  I read in one place that it should be one full turn, read in another it should be half and another 1/4.  I will go with 1/8 and see what kind of results I can get.

How do you go about tightening the lifter plate bolts?  How tight would you describe yourself as going with those?

Does pulling in the clutch and raising the RPMs on the bike dump oil into the clutch basket?

If I may: re: lifter plate bolts: These should not be the problem that they seem to be for so many. IF THE SPLINES OF THE HUB ARE MESHED TO THE SPLINES OF THE PRESSURE PLATE, then you simply run down the 4 bolts alternatively a turn at a time till the plate bottoms out on the tops of the posts of the pressure plate. Then simple 6mm bolt torque of 6 to 8 lbs and you're done. If the splines don't mesh, then you'll struggle with the bolts and ultimately break the plate.

SInce there are the 4 posts, there is only 4 ways the plate can mesh with the hub. Only 1 (maybe 2) ways is correct. I think I posted pictures in this thread already.

This is an easy peasy deal. If you struggle, its not right.

[BrockSamson]

MCRider I reviewed your post.  Thank you for linking it by the way.

You can tell when the posts do not mesh, it is a bit wobbly and doesn't seat well.

I did not struggle at all, to the contrary it was very easy to bolt down.  I wasn't even using a wrench, just turning a socket by hand. 

It sounds like I need to tighten it more because I definitely DIDN'T bottom out.  The turns felt "snug" and because that was the description I was given (apparently there are no torque ratings from Honda) I didn't go anymore.  There is definitely more room to tighten those up.  I will do that before correctly setting the clutch pin/screw.

"plate bottoms out on the tops of the posts" are the words that I needed to hear, thank you. 

Sorry if this is all straight forward stuff, the directions just did not translate to me that it needed to bottom out.

[MCRider]

MCRider I reviewed your post.  Thank you for linking it by the way.

You can tell when the posts do not mesh, it is a bit wobbly and doesn't seat well.

I did not struggle at all, to the contrary it was very easy to bolt down.  I wasn't even using a wrench, just turning a socket by hand. 

It sounds like I need to tighten it more because I definitely DIDN'T bottom out.  The turns felt "snug" and because that was the description I was given (apparently there are no torque ratings from Honda) I didn't go anymore.  There is definitely more room to tighten those up.  I will do that before correctly setting the clutch pin/screw.

"plate bottoms out on the tops of the posts" are the words that I needed to hear, thank you. 

Sorry if this is all straight forward stuff, the directions just did not translate to me that it needed to bottom out.

No problem with the question. I was just trying to impress how easy it is when the plate and hub mesh properly.

And the manuals do not indicate the lifter plate should hit the tops of the posts, that's true. When everything is right, as you draw down the bolts, the springs act to draw the pressure palte forward into the splines, assuming they are lined up. When the lifter plate sits down on the posts tops, there is enough post left that the springs will compress some more when you pull in the clutch lever, allowing the plates to float.

If the splines don't line up, there is not enough post length exposed for the springs and they coilbind (fully compress to where the coils touch each other). At that point any further tightening will break the plate. This will occur before the plate hits the tops of the posts. So if you've broken one lifter plate already, one would be gunshy about cranking the plate down to the post tops. But that is where it should set.

[BrockSamson]

All four pressure plate bolts were tightened until they stopped.

Adjusted the clutch as to how Hondaman described above. 

I still have the drag no matter what I do.

I pulled off the shifter side cover, everything looks in order and in place.  No broken springs.

Any suggestions?  I am getting ready to pull the clutch case again and inspect everything.

[BrockSamson]

I am going to switch back to the original disks with stiffer springs and see how that goes.  Will update in 30-45 minutes.

[madmtnmotors]

How about more pictures? Include the inside of the clutch cover (top and side views) too. Pictures of everything else:

>Before disassembly
>During disassembly
>After disassembly
>During reassembly
>After reassembly

[BrockSamson]

Pictures on the way.  Started taking measurements.  As a reminder I have a K7.  I received an entire K8 clutch basket assembly and parted the pressure plate from that.  I also have the APE clutch springs and friction plates.

Spring Length:

My K7:
31.96 mm
32.55 mm
31.92 mm
32.24 mm

K8 Spare Clutch Springs:
39.57 mm
39.70 mm
39.78 mm
39.55 mm

APE:
35.66 mm
35.37 mm
35.72 mm
35.64 mm

Observations:
K8 springs by far have the longest length followed by the APE and lastly my K7.

I am having a hard time finding the appropriate tolerances for springs in a K7.  See thread below:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=26844.0

[BrockSamson]

Friction Plates:

K7:
Slanted Slot Plate:
3.68 mm
Square Plates:
3.63 mm
3.74 mm
3.65 mm
3.56 mm
3.65 mm
3.62 mm
 
K8:
Slanted Slot Plate:
3.54 mm
Square Plates:
3.47 mm
3.50 mm
3.48 mm
3.43 mm
3.42 mm
3.46 mm

[BrockSamson]

 Just took measurements from what was in the clutch basket:

APE Friction Plates:
2.54 mm
2.46 mm
2.49 mm
2.51 mm
2.43 mm
2.58 mm
2.52 mm
2.51 mm
2.49 mm

Steel Plates:
1.97 mm
2.03 mm
2.02 mm
1.99 mm
1.97 mm
1.96 mm
2.00 mm
4.98 mm (The double plate)


According to these numbers this would be my clutch plate/friction plate stacks:

K7:
FP: 25.53 mm
Metal: 15.0 mm
Total: 40.53 mm

K8:
FP: 24.3 mm
Metal: 15.0 mm
Total: 39.3 mm

APE:
FP:  22.53 mm
Metal: 18.92 mm
Total: 41.45 mm

[BrockSamson]

Ok now that you have the measurements I will provide pictures of me installing the clutch as asked.  The pictures I am taking are of me re-installing the clutch with my original K7 friction plates and metal divider plates.  I use the heavy duty springs from the APE kit in this example.  Here we go:

The empty clutch basket ready for reassembly:


I pack all of the disks in.  Notice how the double plate has been moved out of the middle to one end.



I push the assembly into basket.


I put on the conical washer.

I put on the tabbed washer.

I screw on the special clutch nut thing.

I bend one of the tabs to lock it in place.

I insert the lifter plate and thread the screws in a couple turns then proceed to screw each one in a cross pattern until I get resistance on all four corners.



I put on the gasket for the clutch case cover.

I put the clutch case cover on and begin to bolt it down.  Bolting down in a cross pattern until hand tight.



I attached the completely slacked clutch cable

I make sure the lever has good slack as well.

I adjust the lock nut and screw as per Hondaman.  The screw stops, I back it out 1/8 of a turn.  The first picture is of it at the point of stopping, the second is the backing off of 1/8 of a turn.


I reduce some slack in the cable at the clutch case.  I start the bike let it warm up.  I have good resistance at the clutch lever.  I drop into first, clunk, I get drag and I can't get it back into neutral.

I reduce slack some more.  Harder clutch pull. Same result clutch drag bike tries to move forward no neutral.

I reduce slack even more.  Harder clutch pull.  Same result clutch drag bike tries to move forward no neutral.

As you can see from the last picture my cellphone battery was dying and I lost my flash.  I adjusted all the way out to where I was losing comfort in the amount of effort it took to pull the clutch.  Same result.

[BrockSamson]

Next steps I am going to take:

-Send email to Jay at APE to make sure I received the correct kit.

-Check for warped plates despite none of them appearing warped at all.

-Put in my original springs and see if I can at least get rid of the clutch drag.

[BrockSamson]

Has anyone had a chance to review my installation procedure for flaws?  Any other thoughts or criticisms?  I just sent out my email to Jay at Ape and hopefully he can confirm I do in fact have the correct clutch kit.