Topic: Clutch Advice Needed ** RESOLVED! **

[Brantley]

Brock, your photo documentation is very thorough, but please tell me you forgot to photo the step where you put the thick, splined thrust washer on the shaft before the clutch pack and it's in there...
#15 here:http://www.westernhillshondayamaha.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2144390&category=Motorcycles&make=HONDA&year=1972&fveh=125058

[BrockSamson]

I took a picture and multiple pictures of every step. 

I do not recognize that part... #$%*... I feel like I have never seen that part... how did I miss that on my parts diagram?

That goes between that outer basket in my first picture and the second inner basket (the one that is the stacked until of pressure plate, frictions plates, etc?

[MCRider]

Brock, your photo documentation is very thorough, but please tell me you forgot to photo the step where you put the thick, splined thrust washer on the shaft before the clutch pack and it's in there...
#15 here:http://www.westernhillshondayamaha.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2144390&category=Motorcycles&make=HONDA&year=1972&fveh=125058

Nice catch!

[BrockSamson]

Brantley good eye and thank you very much.

What symptoms would missing this part cause?  The drag or slippage?

[MCRider]

I took a picture and multiple pictures of every step. 

I do not recognize that part... #$%*... I feel like I have never seen that part... how did I miss that on my parts diagram?

That goes between that outer basket in my first picture and the second inner basket (the one that is the stacked until of pressure plate, frictions plates, etc?

Let us know how that works out for you! Personally I don't know what symptom would occur from leaving this out, but seems it would make a difference.

[Brantley]

Brantley good eye and thank you very much.

What symptoms would missing this part cause?  The drag or slippage?

You know those tabletop touch screen games you see in bars? The one where you pick out the differences in 2 pics of a scantily-clad chick? I spent too much time in front of one of those... I would imagine that would explain your original slippage if you've never seen it. Maybe like the same symptom as leaving out a disc or plate as not enough "slack" is being taken up in the hub? To quote Ron, "OCICBW". If you have trouble finding one PM me, I may have one to spare.

[ken736cc]

I see what appears to be a poor fitting aftermarket clutch lever. Some of these do not give as much lever travel and cable pull as stock. However, if the old clutch worked OK with this lever, then it is probably not an issue.
Keep at it, you will find the problem and get an education as well.

[BrockSamson]

I pulled the clutch lever and it did have some up and down wiggle to it. 

I took the entire thing out because I remembered reading a thread about the hole it pivots on becoming oval... but mine was perfectly round. 

Is a little up and down wiggle normal?  Can you over tighten the clutch lever when installing it? 

[MCRider]

I pulled the clutch lever and it did have some up and down wiggle to it. 

I took the entire thing out because I remembered reading a thread about the hole it pivots on becoming oval... but mine was perfectly round. 

Is a little up and down wiggle normal?  Can you over tighten the clutch lever when installing it?

A little is OK. Question is what'sa little? I like nice firm controls. You checked the ovalarity of the hole, good. The good levers will have a bushing in the hole, usually brass or bronze. And you should be able to tighten down the perch to limit the flop. Though that aspect is also controlled by the shoulder on the pinch bolt. So less flop comes from a lever that fills the space.

Regardless, while you may want a nicer lever, that's not your problem. My money is on that washer. APE and the ilk have made and used those clutch discs in the thousands, maybe tens of thousands. And other people have mixed and matched clutch plates for untold purposes. And yet the clutches always worked.

I mentioned in an earlier post it sounded like something was missing, I thought in the lifter. Again, my money is now on the washer.

[BrockSamson]

Yeah you called it from the beginning MCRider. 

I do not like the clutch controls.  I was looking around for something I liked and saw the billet joker controls and those were crazyyyy expensive, so just gave up on looking. because there were other priorities (recently purchased an X-Ring chain and sprockets).

I am headed to the garage right after work and I am going to flip that place upside down and figure out where that washer went to.  I actually should have a spare with the clutch basket assembly now that I think about it.  Which even makes me crazier because I had to have looked at that part when I was checking out my K8 spare basket two days ago...

I also bet that it had something to do with that screw needing to be turned in so much.   

Update will be coming tonight. 

[MCRider]

Yeah you called it from the beginning MCRider. 

I do not like the clutch controls.  I was looking around for something I liked and saw the billet joker controls and those were crazyyyy expensive, so just gave up on looking. because there were other priorities (recently purchased an X-Ring chain and sprockets).

I am headed to the garage right after work and I am going to flip that place upside down and figure out where that washer went to.  I actually should have a spare with the clutch basket assembly now that I think about it.  Which even makes me crazier because I had to have looked at that part when I was checking out my K8 spare basket two days ago...

I also bet that it had something to do with that screw needing to be turned in so much.   

Update will be coming tonight.

Just a WAG.

I relooked at your lever. It appears to be a knockoff of the Magura Power lever, also know as dog-leg and others. I use one on mine as well. The Magura lever (if still available) was $20 IIRC. The knockoffs were $2 to $5+. So when you get a break from the real problems, you can look for a better one.

Good Luck!

[HondaMan]

Also look for: some of the mainshafts have a snap ring in place of that washer. It functions the same. This gizmo sets the depth of the inner pressure plate, be it washer or snapring.

[MCRider]

Also look for: some of the mainshafts have a snap ring in place of that washer. It functions the same. This gizmo sets the depth of the inner pressure plate, be it washer or snapring.

"Sets the depth..."  Hmmm that could be important!   

[BrockSamson]

Ahhh the parts diagram that showed I was missing that thrust washer was for a 72.

If you look at this one for a K7 you can see that it requires a snap ring... I did make sure the snap ring was installed and you can definitely see it in the first two pictures.  It is also part #15:

http://www.westernhillshondayamaha.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2036874&category=Motorcycles&make=HONDA&year=1977&fveh=123327

What I MIGHT be missing is that #13 washer. 

[BrockSamson]

Yep I can't see that washer on the shaft.  So I think part #13 in the diagram is what I am missing.

[BrockSamson]

Hondaman, can you go into more detail about how this "sets the depth" of the inner pressure plate?

Edit:  does it just act as a spacer?

[MCRider]

Ahhh the parts diagram that showed I was missing that thrust washer was for a 72.

If you look at this one for a K7 you can see that it requires a snap ring... I did make sure the snap ring was installed and you can definitely see it in the first two pictures.  It is also part #15:

http://www.westernhillshondayamaha.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2036874&category=Motorcycles&make=HONDA&year=1977&fveh=123327

What I MIGHT be missing is that #13 washer.

yeah, I think that is a different look at the same part. Yours has the circlip as well. Again a WAG.

[HondaMan]

Hondaman, can you go into more detail about how this "sets the depth" of the inner pressure plate?

Edit:  does it just act as a spacer?

Oops: not the pressure plate: the space between the CLUTCH BASKET and the pressure plate (sorry!). This washer/snapring also functions to hold the basket on the mainshaft. This controls the dreaded end-play issues that plagued the later clutches with the 2-steel spring plate (i.e., rattle). There are 2 thicknesses of washers out there for the pre-1976 bikes, although the parts fiche show only 1: this was a production tolerance thing where too much play led to not enough threads on the clutch adjuster at the case (sound familiar?). (The real 'culprit' is the location of the bearing retainer ringlet at the far end of the mainshaft: some of the bearings has grooves in a slightly different location, causing the mainshaft to shift a bit toward or away from the clutch adjuster.)

[BrockSamson]

Sounds very familiar. 

I guess I have a hard time wrapping my head around why I would have both clutch drag and slippage. 

I am going to put BACK in the entire APE kit.  I was getting the same amount of drag regardless of what friction plates I was using and no amount of clutch adjustment was resolving the issue.

I get the issue with the clutch lever... it does feel like I don't get enough clutch lever pull or slack.  If feel like if there was more throw I could pull in the clutch and shift and when I released it would fully grab and not slip.   

Hopefully this missing part is the key. 

[MCRider]

Sounds very familiar. 

I guess I have a hard time wrapping my head around why I would have both clutch drag and slippage. 

I am going to put BACK in the entire APE kit.  I was getting the same amount of drag regardless of what friction plates I was using and no amount of clutch adjustment was resolving the issue.

I get the issue with the clutch lever... it does feel like I don't get enough clutch lever pull or slack.  If feel like if there was more throw I could pull in the clutch and shift and when I released it would fully grab and not slip.   

Hopefully this missing part is the key.

All you can do is eliminate the variables. Replace the washer, return to a known clutch disc setup, etc.

The lever really shouldn't be a material part of this. just something nice to have sorted. But replacing it with an OEM part eliminates the variable. Once its all sorted you can see if you like the dog-leg better, I do.

Do you have a washer? I know someone offered one. I probably have a spare too.

[BrockSamson]

Well, I chose to go out boozing with my pals after work instead of working on the bike so tomorrow you will get an update on the clutch.  No kidding, my starter crapped out on my car this morning and I had to call my friend to help me push start it.  After work I had to pick the car up from the shop and I felt obligated to buy my pal  that helped me push start the car drinks. 

I should have TWO of those washers.  One that was part of the clutch basket assembly before I lost it, and one should be part of the K8 clutch basket I purchased. 

When I am able to sneak out of the office tomorrow I will be back at it.  I am losing sleep over not being able to get the bike on the road.

[BrockSamson]

Update Time:

I found the missing part.  I unpacked the old worn friction disks and repacked the APE disks with the double plate.  Buttoned everything up.  Adjusted the cable as to Hondaman's directions.  I start her up and let it warm up... drop it into first...

NO DRAG!

I pull out of the driveway and cruise down the road...

NO SLIPPAGE!!!!!!!

Everything is resolved.  Shifts amazing.  Finds neutral easily.

I guess that washer was REALLY important.  I also soaked the disks in fresh oil instead of applying oil to them with my fingers as I was packing it.

Thank you everyone for the help.  I just went on a 30 minute ride and it was the first one where I didn't have the clutch slipping... ever.    I am all smiles.

I will post a couple pictures of her buttoned up with new stainless hardware when I get home.

Thank you!
-Billy

[MCRider]

Great News! Good on You!

[BrockSamson]

The Missing Part!


The Part Installed


All buttoned up and back from a recent ride.

[Brantley]

Sweet.