Author Topic: Teach me. When you decrease back pressure,  (Read 2960 times)

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Offline flybox1

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Teach me. When you decrease back pressure,
« on: July 13, 2012, 08:23:55 AM »
(switch to a more open exhaust) how does it effect the complete burn of fuel?

Back story to the question....
Rode last night, good and long, first really long ride since adding my 4 into 1, and here is what the recurring symptoms are:  (I have not had time to do a plug chop in the different throttle positions, but can do this weekend)
Intermittent/sporadic/random popping during idle and on decel
Smooth accel and no hesitation through all throttle positions. Nice 8)
750K1 engine.  stock airbox/filter. AF screws out 1.5 turns.
PD42b's -  #35 idle jet. #120 main. slides shimmed 1mm higher. 
wrapped 4 into 1 kerker (lightly baffled)

I had significantly less popping on decel before installing my 4/1, and now i also have it randomly at idle.  (deducing that the decreased back pressure has richened the idle circuit making the popping more pronounced, and hoping a .5 turn IN of my FMS will lean me out enough)

I didnt grow up around engines, and have yet to completely tear down one of these Hondas. The day will come, though.  I've been lucky that the bikes I've acquired have been easily made runners.  I truly enjoy hanging out here and reading threads to better my knowledge, but i'm still green....
I'm at that point where I need to know WHY, and not just rely on knowing that it DOES. :P
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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Offline cgswss

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Re: Teach me. When you decrease back pressure,
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2012, 08:39:51 AM »
Normally back firing on decl is an indicator of a lean condition.  Also as a general rule, most louder after market exhaust system will require a richer jet.  The base reason is that for a time in the engine's cycle, both intake and exhaust valves are open.  The rush of outgoing exhaust helps pull air/fuel in.  While we don't think of them as such, motorcycles cam-even stock cams, would be considered "race" cams in a car.  What this means is during this overlap period Some of the incoming air/fuel mixture will be sucked out into the exhaust.  Well exhaust systems are "tuned" to shove some of that air fuel mixture back into the cylinder just before the exhaust valve shuts.  This is why after market exhaust system tend to need more fuel (bigger jets)- more of the incoming air/fuel mix is being shoved out into the exhaust pipe.  A plug chop will confirm this lean condition.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Teach me. When you decrease back pressure,
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2012, 08:44:26 AM »
Don't those come stock with #40 pilot jets?
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Teach me. When you decrease back pressure,
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2012, 09:03:14 AM »
Don't those come stock with #40 pilot jets?
No. press in #35's are stock
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline the technological J

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Re: Teach me. When you decrease back pressure,
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2012, 02:30:24 PM »
im just gonna throw out carb synch for the masses and richen her up
70 KO...sold to fund the ST http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88800.0(Alpha)
74 Kaw 250 Enduro http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=124278.0
K4 added to collection! http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=104784.0
78 750K... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60257.0 (Omega)sold to fund the K4
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72 750 K2 Stay tuned!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Teach me. When you decrease back pressure,
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2012, 09:14:56 PM »
With these SOHC4 engines, the cam timing has quite a lot of overlap (i.e., the valves are both open at once between the exhaust and intake stroke), which is a little unusual in the world of car engines or DOHC bike engines. Thus, there are some slightly different characteristics and symptoms to get used to (which sometimes causes confusion...).

First, Flybox: you are correct in that the decel is popping due to extra fuel leftovers. This is because the decreased backpressure is causing a 'non slowdown' of the inlet flow when you first shut off the throttle, and a surge of unburned fuel reaches the hot header pipes. This quickly vaporizes and the subsequent leaner hot pulses set it off, making the popping noise. If the sprakplugs are staying clean enough, there is no harm, but if they are starting to look darker, than first try turning the idle air screws in a little at a time, and retest (always with a warm engine). Don't turn them in large increments, like 1/4 turn at a time, or you'll add more confusion: their active range is only about 1.5 turns wide, i.e., 3/4 turns more open or closed from the factory setting. Beyond that range, they do strange things because of the way these carbs work. They are not like automotive carbs.

If, for example, the screws get too far in, the affected cylinder gets too lean to fire at all. But, since the next cylinder in the firing order can drag it along anyway, this pumps some of the unburned fuel into the header, and some gets left in the bore, so the NEXT time there will be enough to fire. This action then drags the previous cylinder through the same thing, and the exhaust "appears" to be rich again, when in fact it is very lean. Even a CO meter then shows a higher reading, because the exhaust mix has a bunch of unfired loads being pumped into it. This REALLY confuses folks...

If the screws go too rich (open), then the cylinder can't burn it all. In as few as 3 engine cycles, this makes the plug wet and the richness in the pipes goes way up, but there is not enough "fire" in the pipes to set it off an make it pop until the bike has coasted a long(er) way down a hill, or something similar. Then it starts popping.

So, if you have long hills around, you can use them to help diagnose things. Here in Colorado, that's REAL easy to find.  :)

So, just try adjusting those screws a bit at a time, and you may well hit the right spot with the stock parts you already have. The setting will just not be stock.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline flybox1

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Re: Teach me. When you decrease back pressure,
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2012, 12:40:36 PM »
hondaman  8)
Thank you for this write up. Just what I was looking for.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline lucky

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Re: Teach me. When you decrease back pressure,
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2012, 04:31:19 PM »
I think some #40mm idle jets will help a lot. Try it you will see what I mean.
All of a sudden the idle and throttle response from idle will be much better.

Btw.. did those shims sit on top of the pocket inside the bottom the slide, or did they sit down inside that pocket in the bottom of the slide??
Another member of the forum used a A/F meter and found that one shim worked best.
.020 sitting on top of the pocket in the bottom of the slide. The pocket is .012 so really you end up with .032 thousandths.


And of course the accelerator pump and nozzles are working as they should?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 04:37:13 PM by lucky »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Teach me. When you decrease back pressure,
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2012, 05:40:41 PM »
Backfire through carbs at idle.  Look for improper carb vacuum balance, or early ignition timing.  ...Or leaking intake valves.

Backfire during decel, look for too lean an idle mixture.  OR, leaking exhaust gaskets.

The PD carbs were originally tuned for a higher pressure pipe.  During idle, the pressure hindered full exhaust gas extraction.  This left some unburned hydrocarbons in the chamber (fuel), while the oxygen was expended.  For the next charge, you can add oxygen and reduce fuel provisions, to get a nice lean burn effect, or a very efficient idle.  The pressure also hinders some heat removal as well.  Higher chamber temps also help fuel atomization for a more complete burn, to use all the minimal fuel that was provided to the engine.

Don't confuse pressure with flow volume.  You can get the same flow volume with a high differential pressure as with a low differential pressure.  I'm not sure how to explain that in a simple way, though.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Teach me. When you decrease back pressure,
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2012, 08:18:22 PM »
Right now I have two 0.5mm shims sitting in the pocket in the top of the slide. I get instand and uninhibited throttle response, and no backfiring of any sort while I am on the throttle. The popping at idle OS minimal, and more of my ocd as my 350f idled very smoothly. I have a 6 sided electric drill bit I'm using to turn the fuel screws. I adjusted my previous setting of 1.5 turns out to 7/6th turn out. At the end of my ride today, I cut out and coasted right in the middle of the decel popping.  Finding Nice tan plugs all across the board. Yes, I just added the exhaust, and my header seals are tight with no leaks.
Confused, though. I have too lean AND to rich responses. ::)
More fine carb tuning to be had...
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"