Topic: lacing cb750 wheels

[nomad20012]

I've tried following greenbushacres.ca/Motorcycles/Technical/Wheels_Tires/CB750_Wheel_Rebuild tutorial close but I cannot seem to properly get the spoke patterns right. Does anyone know any key tricks into making this work yhat I may be missing? I've checked I have the right spokes and proper parts.
thanks

[nancy]

Did mine in June last year (front). Frustrating. Remember you have inners and outers on EACH side. Start place is critical. If start spoke is wrong - all will be likely wrong.
Start with all inners - or outers - I can't remember which (check that out here - it is documented)- and loosely assemble...both sides. Then do all the others (inners or outers) on both sides. Then, start tightening...uniformly say 1 full turn while very loose, then 1/2 turn, finally 1/4 turns, till taut enough to "piinnngg" when tapped. Before putting on a true stand and being frustrated for many more hours possibly. Walk away and begin another day. It took me ages.
See pic of my wheel..hope it helps with lacing pattern.
regards
Mark
PS: it helps to take up drinking.

[nomad20012]

Yeah one problem I think I'm having is finding the critical starting spoke for each inner and outter. I've done them for 36 hole successfully but not 40. Am losing my mind, must be the most frustrating thing you can do to a bike.

[lucky]

Only put in 4 spokes in a group at a time.

It is called a 4 cross over pattern.
two inside spoke ,two outside spokes. Like that.
You need a completed wheel to look at.
Put in one spoke of the group of four then put in the other three. Then move on to the next group of four spokes and so on.

Do not tighten ANY spokes until ALL of the spokes are in the wheel.

[nomad20012]

Thanks Old timer, will give that a try.

[Hinomaru]

Here you go ... CB750 wheel lacing and truing article:

http://www.sohc4.net/index.php/wheelrebuild/

[MCRider]

Here you go ... CB750 wheel lacing and truing article:

http://www.sohc4.net/index.php/wheelrebuild/

As usual Hino, great material. That's definitely the way I would and have done it.

Never heard Lucky's way before, might work but i don't see how.

[nomad20012]

^^^
This is the same how-to I used. It's basically the only one I can find on the internet and is just re-done on a few different formats. It doesn't tell you where to start (key spokes), just to line up the holes but you need a specific start.

I used old timers advice and did one group until it was done. The pattern turned out perfect and it looks correct as I'd referenced another wheel while doing it, but all the spoke are threaded to the end of nipples and there's still about 3/4" of slack.
Do I have the wrong spokes maybe?

[MCRider]

^^^
This is the same how-to I used. It's basically the only one I can find on the internet and is just re-done on a few different formats. It doesn't tell you where to start (key spokes), just to line up the holes but you need a specific start.

I used old timers advice and did one group until it was done. The pattern turned out perfect and it looks correct as I'd referenced another wheel while doing it, but all the spoke are threaded to the end of nipples and there's still about 3/4" of slack.
Do I have the wrong spokes maybe?

On the how to, you'd start with all insides. It wouldn't matter where you start as everything keys off of that. In the how to, the poster was cheating a little as he could still see the scars from the original lacing and could simply match the spokes up to that. Do you not have scars on your hub from where the original spokes went?

If all of the spokes have thread showing and you got it laced up you'll have to grind down the overage. If its just onoe set of spokes like all of the rt side insides, then you may have it laced wrong.

BTW having to grind down excess spoke is common, but shouldn't apply (usually) to more than 5-10 spokes.  I suppose it could apply to all of them. Doesn't mean you have the wrong spokes. Did you buy them OEM or aftermarket? Quality control.

If the nipples are all the way down and there is not enough thread left to true the wheel, then you likely have it laced wrong, or #2 less likely, wrong spokes

[nomad20012]

Okay, what's wrong with this picture!?

I have some marks on the outside of the hub where the previous spokes were but it's not lining up for some reason and they are only a few on the outter spokes.

[MCRider]

I'm trying to post pics but it won't let me. I must not have enough credibility with my low post count newness.

I have some marks on the outside of the hub where the previous spokes were but it's not lining up for some reason and they are only a few on the outter spokes.

I'm going to keep trying to get some pics up.

In my opinion, that lacing pattern is wrong. The front wheel of our CBs is a "cross 3" pattern. That is if you start at the hub and follow a spoke to the rim it will cross 3 spokes getting there. Yours only crosses 2.

The rear wheel when you get there, is a cross 2.

I don't know where the idea of a cross 4 came from.

As to the scars, you only need one. Everything can grow from that.

I suggest going back to the lacing DIY post and try to follow that. It is correct.

PS: Now that i see your addtl pictures, your pattern is way off. Unlace and start over.  I know your "stuck" in this thing. Believe me its not that hard. Once you get the knack it just flows together.

[Really?]

Be glad you have Ron to bounce off of doing this. He helped me during my rear wheel lacing a few years ago. Came out very well.

[MCRider]

Be glad you have Ron to bounce off of doing this. He helped me during my rear wheel lacing a few years ago. Came out very well.

Thanks for the props Really?.
 
Also, nancy's post is correct, and her/his picture shows the cross 3. That is, if you pick an outside spoke at the hub, it will cross 3 inside spokes getting to the rim.

There is no need to sweat a starting point. Pick a hole and go. Start with an inside, skip a hole, another inside etc.

[nomad20012]

I'm trying to post pics but it won't let me. I must not have enough credibility with my low post count newness.

I have some marks on the outside of the hub where the previous spokes were but it's not lining up for some reason and they are only a few on the outter spokes.

I'm going to keep trying to get some pics up.

In my opinion, that lacing pattern is wrong. The front wheel of our CBs is a "cross 3" pattern. That is if you start at the hub and follow a spoke to the rim it will cross 3 spokes getting there. Yours only crosses 2.

The rear wheel when you get there, is a cross 2.

I don't know where the idea of a cross 4 came from.

As to the scars, you only need one. Everything can grow from that.

I suggest going back to the lacing DIY post and try to follow that. It is correct.

PS: Now that i see your addtl pictures, your pattern is way off. Unlace and start over.  I know your "stuck" in this thing. Believe me its not that hard. Once you get the knack it just flows together.

Ahh, I didn't know the 18 rear used a different pattern, that's what I used as a guide so that explains that.

Will try again. Many thanks for the help.

[JeffSTL]

I built a set of bicycle wheels and I assumme it is the same.  The key spoke would be an inside trailing spoke starting n next to the valve stem hole.  If you don't start in the correct place spokes willcross at your valve stem and you won't be able to air up  your tire.

I can't copy and paste on my phone but if you google sheldon brown 3 cross there is a very goodd article on wheel lacing.

[nomad20012]

Finally!
This time I also did everything from one side of the wheel, without flipping it over. This may have messed me up before since I would lose direction of which way the spokes were to go.

[lucky]

Okay, what's wrong with this picture!?

I have some marks on the outside of the hub where the previous spokes were but it's not lining up for some reason and they are only a few on the outter spokes.

When you look down at the wheel and you look at a spoke it must cross over 4 other spokes.On your wheel each spoke is only crossing over two other spokes. That is why the spokes are too long and sticking out of the nipple. If you lace it correctly with stock spoke no spokes stick out of the spoke nipple.

LUCKY

Click once on the photo to enlarge.

[JeffSTL]

Looks right. Does the valve stem hole fall in the space between two of the sets of four? If not the spokes may interfere with valve stem.

[lucky]

Finally!
This time I also did everything from one side of the wheel, without flipping it over. This may have messed me up before since I would lose direction of which way the spokes were to go.

Congatulations!!!!

[mcuozzo]

Congrats, it's tricky the first time (the second time too...).   Wish I would have seen this sooner as I could've help.   The real trick is not where you start, you can start anywhere on the inside as long as you get the spoke to the correctly angled hole.   Than using every other hole on the flange you space the other inside spokes so that there are three holes are between each spoke on the rim.

The real trick comes when you flip over the wheel.  The inside spoke on the new side must cross over the far inside spoke (when looking down on the hub) and be 10 (maybe 9, don't have a wheel in front of me) holes away from its counter part, but on the opposite side of the rim.

When you move to the outside spokes they cross over the spoke on the same side of the hub and must be a certain number 5 or 6 holes away from the inside spoke on the rim.

In my garage I have all this stuff written down so I don't have to go to an existing wheel and look it up.

Anyway I hope that makes sense and maybe it will help someone else who finds this thread later.

Anyone with questions can pm me.   Not that I'm an expert but I've done a few sets of wheels (18, 19 and 16's with both all inside and insdie outside spokes) and I have enough old wheels to always take a look.

Are you going to true the wheel?  I hope so.  It saves big money and it's not hard at all.  I'd invest the $30 in a harbor freight truing stand.  And oh yeah an $8 spoke wrench.

Matt

[nomad20012]

Haven't trued anything yet. Taking a break until the numbness goes away from my fingertips! But hey, I can thread a spoke with my eyes closed, while driving, while fishing, while even enriching uranium like nobodys business.

Next up is the 18 rear wheel which should be cake now. I've done 21", 19" & 16" XS650 36 spoke rims with not to many problems.
I agree, the trick that I was struggling with was turning the wheel over I lost the orientation of the spokes and lining up with the correct hole on the rim. It was pretty obvious by the time I started the second row of outters everything was right.
But damn it's frustrating when it's wrong!

[MCRider]

Looks right. Does the valve stem hole fall in the space between two of the sets of four? If not the spokes may interfere with valve stem.

That's an interesting observation, made me go look. On my Excel rims at least, its not possible to lace it in a way that the valve stem hole would not fall between 2 groups of four. Because of the angles of the holes.

Straight pulls, like on a bicycle, might be a problem.

[JeffSTL]

^^ You're right. I looked at my stock 750 rim when I got home. The angles are pretty pronounced.you would have to work pretty hard to get the valve stem in the wrong spot and probably damage the rim.

Oh well, just trying to help out with the knowledge I have about wheel lacing.

[MCRider]

^^ You're right. I looked at my stock 750 rim when I got home. The angles are pretty pronounced.you would have to work pretty hard to get the valve stem in the wrong spot and probably damage the rim.

Oh well, just trying to help out with the knowledge I have about wheel lacing.

I appreciate it. made me look at mine again even though I'd built them in the first place! 

[WhyNot2]

I might soon try my own.........

[bollingball]

I don't know where the idea of a cross 4 came from.
I do
Quote lucky When you look down at the wheel and you look at a spoke it must cross over 4 other spokes.
Ken

[MCRider]

I don't know where the idea of a cross 4 came from.
I do
Quote lucky When you look down at the wheel and you look at a spoke it must cross over 4 other spokes.
Ken

I can't tell if there is sarcasm or humor involved here.

I was trying to be polite.

Lucky called it a cross 4 for some other reason, group of 4 or whatever.

The terminology of "cross this or that" has to do with the number of inside spokes an outside spoke will cross. On a CB750 front wheel its 3, on the rear its 2.

[Old Scrambler]

When you lace your own wheels you tend to sit a little taller at the bench-racing sessions........just remember to check for loose spokes after a few miles.

[lucky]

I don't know where the idea of a cross 4 came from.
I do
Quote lucky When you look down at the wheel and you look at a spoke it must cross over 4 other spokes.
Ken

I can't tell if there is sarcasm or humor involved here.

I was trying to be polite.

Lucky called it a cross 4 for some other reason, group of 4 or whatever.

The terminology of "cross this or that" has to do with the number of inside spokes an outside spoke will cross. On a CB750 front wheel its 3, on the rear its 2.

That is just the way I was taught.
There are other spoke patterns also that you see on show bikes.

[pitpig]

Don't know if this helps, but I had great success by dropping all the inners at the same time into the hub.  It was easier to visualize where they went in each group of four.  Took me a day to figure out that there are groups of four dimples that point inboard around the rim.  Installed all the inners without flipping hub over, once you get that figured out, the outers are easy.