Author Topic: '75 CB550 Idle Issues  (Read 8213 times)

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Offline sniper1

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'75 CB550 Idle Issues
« on: July 17, 2012, 05:23:15 PM »
OK, so I synched up my carbs and still having issues. I have a hard time getting it to go back to idle after blipping the throttle. I get it to idle at 1100 RPM, no problem. Then, I blip the throttle and it revs to about 2200 rpm and takes a while for it to settle back down to a decent rpm (1100 - 1600). I can adjust the idle adjusting screw back down, but as soon as I blip the throttle again, I get the same problem. It seems to run fine fine otherwise. 

I took it for a test drive and when pulling in the clutch to shift gears, it stays at whatever revs it was at and then stays there throughout the shift. It causes alot of lash.

Any thoughts on the problem(s) here??? What am I missing here? Could it be a valve problem? Timing Problem? Carb Problem? Jetting Problem?

Any advice is appreciated.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2012, 05:33:49 PM »
I believe I listed options in your other thread.  They weren't answers you liked?

Did you carb sync at idle?

Did you twist all the slide adjusters?

Is there any possibility the slides can't reach the floor?

If you back out the idle knob will the engine die?

Is your throttle cable binding from too small a bend radius?

Are your throttle cables or twist grip binding?

Have you made the cables too tight?  They should move about 1/4 inch before any actuation takes place.

Have you eliminated any possibility of carb coupler leaks?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline sniper1

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2012, 05:48:30 PM »

Here are some anwers:

Did you carb sync at idle?
Yes

Did you twist all the slide adjusters?
What are slide adjusters?

Is there any possibility the slides can't reach the floor?
Maybe, I'm not sure what slides your talking about, so it is possible they can't reach the floor.

If you back out the idle knob will the engine die?
Yes, If I back it out far enough, the engine will die.

Is your throttle cable binding from too small a bend radius?
No.

Are your throttle cables or twist grip binding?
No.

Have you made the cables too tight?  They should move about 1/4 inch before any actuation takes place.
They do.

Have you eliminated any possibility of carb coupler leaks?
I believe so. All of the clamps on the couplers are tight and don't notice any leaks.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2012, 07:14:08 PM »
Did you carb sync at idle?
Yes

Did you twist all the slide adjusters?
What are slide adjusters?

Is there any possibility the slides can't reach the floor?
Maybe, I'm not sure what slides your talking about, so it is possible they can't reach the floor.

Picture below of the slide adjusters.  The slides are what move up and down inside carburetor.  You should only adjust three of the four, matching vacuum to the one you didn't (hopefully never) touch.  The adjusters position the slide in each carb so that the engine draws equal vacuum at each inlet.
The second pic is of the lifter arm and you can also see the top of the slide that the lifter arm moves upward (or downward).

The last drawing is of a generic carb showing the slide in the center of the diagram.  The slide lifts to allow more air into the engine through the carb bore.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Gman

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2012, 11:47:30 AM »

Picture below of the slide adjusters.  The slides are what move up and down inside carburetor.  You should only adjust three of the four, matching vacuum to the one you didn't (hopefully never) touch.  The adjusters position the slide in each carb so that the engine draws equal vacuum at each inlet.
The second pic is of the lifter arm and you can also see the top of the slide that the lifter arm moves upward (or downward).

The last drawing is of a generic carb showing the slide in the center of the diagram.  The slide lifts to allow more air into the engine through the carb bore.

TT,
    I appreciate that you not only give answers/advice, but you follow up and attempt to educate, as well.  I'm perpetually learning something from your posts. 
Thanks!
G
'76 CB550K
Stock airbox, MotoGPWerks 4-1, HondaMan ignition, Lesters

Offline sniper1

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2012, 03:24:04 PM »
Thanks TT. Now that we have the terms right, I can speak more intelligently. I did loosen the locknuts on the slide adjusters on all but the #3 carb. I believe that is the one that should be used as the base to adjust the others off of. I had the other three synched to match #3.

Is there something I have to do with the lifter arm?

I still have the idle issues and not sure what I have to do to fix that.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2012, 03:44:07 PM »
Is there something I have to do with the lifter arm?
Not for carb sync.  I wanted to show the connection path of effect.
If you are going to change needle position on the slides, then yes.

I still have the idle issues and not sure what I have to do to fix that.
Best review how the induction and exhaust set up deviates from stock.

What air screw setting have you chosen?
pilot jet size
slide needle setting
and main jet selection.

Did you do the vacuum sync, or are you relaying info from someone else?

Have you checked the ignition mechanical advance for function and return to idle timing?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline sniper1

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2012, 04:10:38 PM »

Everything is stock. The only change made is the MAC 4-1 exhaust (still has the baffle). I was told that with the MAC 4-1 I wouldn't have to rejet (maybe this was bad advice). The bike ran great when I got it, before I took it apart, was hoping it would be fine when it all went back together.

I vacuum synched it, and that went pretty well.

I backed out the air screws 1 3/4 turns from fully seated. I messed with them during the synch, but didn't notice any changes from 1/2 turn out to 2 full turns out.

When you talk about ignition mechanical advance, I assume you are talking about timing. I adjusted the valves to the proper setting and adjusted the timing correctly. I may have to go back and check this again to be sure. Not sure if since I started it up if something might have changed.

I have a '77 550 also that I have had for 4 years with no issues. I'm not completely ignorant when it comes to these bikes, but this one has me a little baffled. I have included pics of the bike so you can see the setup. I added a pic of '77 also.

If I do have to rejet, do the carbs need to be removed? Or can everything be done without taking them off?

Thanks again.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2012, 04:51:11 PM »
Everything is stock. The only change made is the MAC 4-1 exhaust (still has the baffle). I was told that with the MAC 4-1 I wouldn't have to rejet (maybe this was bad advice).
In my experience, the Mac 4-1 doesn't need any rejetting on stock 74-76 Cb550K models.

The bike ran great when I got it, before I took it apart, was hoping it would be fine when it all went back together.
You took the carbs apart?
Have you verified the fuel system can deliver what the engine demands?


I backed out the air screws 1 3/4 turns from fully seated. I messed with them during the synch, but didn't notice any changes from 1/2 turn out to 2 full turns out.
You won't while parked, you will when you advance the throttle under power.  I would expect 1 3/4 turns to produce more stumble when cracking the throttle under load conditions.

When you talk about ignition mechanical advance, I assume you are talking about timing. I adjusted the valves to the proper setting and adjusted the timing correctly. I may have to go back and check this again to be sure. Not sure if since I started it up if something might have changed.
The timing changes with an RPM increase (advances).  Behind the points plate is a flyweight and spring device that changes timing when the crank turns faster.  The fly weights pivot on a pin, and also turns the point cam on a shaft.  If the grease gets crusty/hardened, the weights and cam can take some time to return to seated position at idle.  Advanced timing can make the engine idle faster or be erratic at returning to idle speed.  It's something else to look at for possible cause.

I'm assuming you have 022a carbs, which have #38 pilot jets, the Slide needle clipped in the 4th position from the top, and #100 Mains.  It should run fine in this configuration based on the 75 CB550K example I once had.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline sniper1

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2012, 05:10:07 PM »
TT,

How'd you like to come to the east coast and square this thing away?

I did not take the carbs apart. Since it ran good before, I left well enough alone. On th air mixture screw, maybe I'll go back to 1 turn out.

So, do you recommend removing the points plate and cleaning and regreasing the area behind it? I can do that.


Offline TwoTired

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2012, 07:23:40 PM »
TT,

How'd you like to come to the east coast and square this thing away?
East coast trip would be fun.  But, you'll have this fixed before I can get there...  ;)

I did not take the carbs apart. Since it ran good before, I left well enough alone. On th air mixture screw, maybe I'll go back to 1 turn out.
How long did the carbs sit, drying out?  You never even looked in the bowls?  Not sure I could resist THAT temptation. :)

So, do you recommend removing the points plate and cleaning and regreasing the area behind it? I can do that.
Depends upon inspection to see if it operates freely.  But, the points plate needs to come of for the inspection of the advance mechanism.
Alternately, a dynamic timing light could be used to observe the timing advance, and how fast the timing retards when the RPM drops.  But, there is a bit of chicken and egg about that as one can cause the other.  Probably more direct to get behind the points plate and see if the bits move freely.  You could have even broken a spring, I suppose.
Nothing like a good visual.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline sniper1

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2012, 03:22:18 PM »
TT,

The carbs were off the bike for about 6 months. I did remove the bowls to paint them. Everything inside was clean as a whistle, the PO said he had just had them cleaned before selling to me. The bike ran good when I got it, but it had a 4-2 system on it. The exhaust was so rusty that I had to discard and replace with the MAC 4-1.

Looks like this weekend, I will check the valve gap, remove points plate to check the advance mechanism (not sure exactly what I'm looking for here, hopefully if something is wrong it will be obvious), points gap, timing, fire it back up, and see how she runs. If still no good, I'll go back into the carbs.

Question is, do I need to remove the carbs in order to properly service/rejet?

Offline XLerate

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2012, 04:32:54 PM »
I would disregard what seller said about having just cleaned carbs. Reason is it can be a crock outright, or else he may know nothing about proper carb cleaning. It may mean he hosed off the outsides with carb cleaner: 'There, I cleaned the carbs!'

Unless you're absolutely sure the carbs have been properly cleaned recently then it wouldn't be good to try to simply rejet with carbs in place. Also there's a chance for some screwups in trying to do it that way unless you're really familiar with working on the particular carb, in place.

Here's some info on carb theory:

http://roadstarclinic.com/content/view/56/96/

Here's some lengthy info on Carburetor Cleaning:

Carburetor Cleaning Tips
Much words here but it seems there’s differing ideas as to what carburetor servicing or cleaning should include. I’ve seen countless internet posts, “I’ve rebuilt/cleaned this carb 5 times and it STILL doesn’t work!”  On all small engines such as motorcycles, mowers, garden tractors, chainsaws etc. there’s some basics that need to be addressed in order to ‘Get it right the first time'.

First off: don’t get too cavalier with gasoline! It’s highly dangerous and toxic and several components have ‘Allowable Lifetime Dosage Limit’  meaning it’s cumulative in your system - Bad stuff, wear rubber gloves [Dishwashing gloves hold up well and are cheap] - allow yourself lots of FRESH AIR! A buddy was cleaning parts in his sink in the garage, busy-busy as he scrubbed away. Towards the end he wanted to wash up parts and hands in nice hot soapy water. Bent over the concrete double wash sink he flipped on the hot water faucet handle, causing a swift chain reaction. Hot water drawn off caused gas water heater burner to kick on a few feet away, igniting gas vapors in garage and flashing across to sink vapors and parts scrub pan filled with gas: THE ONE RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS FACE! They rebuilt that part of garage while he healed fairly well except for the scar tissues. We still call him ‘Old Baldy’. NO SMOKING AREA!

Another potential problem is TOXIC carb spray cleaner vapors! Also the little red wand thingy doesn’t want to seal tight to what you’re spraying so the back splash can go right in the face and eyes, extremely not-fun. Goggles are strongly recommended, you only have one pair of eyes!

Some carb rubber parts are destroyed by carburetor spray cleaners so it’s best to clean carb with gasoline, GENTLY disassemble and remove rubber parts before proceeding farther. It’s good to soak the whole carb assembly either in a coffee can or smaller can of gas, gas/oil mix, or gas & Yamaha Carburetor Cleaner before starting deep cleaning. Coffee cans are nice because of soft plastic lid to prevent accidental spillage or ignition. The assumption is you’ve got a carb gasket kit. Lots of carbs that you don’t need a kit at all, just careful disassembly, cleaning and reassembly. Otherwise if you don’t then monitor condition of rubber etc. while soaking but gas alone won’t hurt things.

Disassemble carb, making drawings or taking photos of parts relationships. Many carbs have online diagrams available. Best to print them out to scribble notes and draw your own little connecting lines to show exactly where parts fit together. I use old cake pans and cup cake or muffin tins to hold all the small bits & pieces. Complicated carbs or racks might call for some Zip-Lock baggies or something to hold parts groups together in one place. TIP: mark Zip-Locks with a Sharpie for extra safety in case rebuild gets delayed, oh wooops!

Remove air/fuel adjustment/mixture screws by first turning them in, counting number of turns till JUST SEATED - NOT SEATED HARD! Write that number down on your guide sheet, remove screw, on to the next. Wearing rubber gloves, using an old toothbrush and some gasoline scrubs off most of the outside of carb, unless you soaked in Yamaha Carburetor Cleaner which already did that for you! After it’s fairly clean, time to break out the spray can of Berrymans Carburetor Cleaner. I prefer Berryman’s, a very high quality product that’s quite aggressive. Cut the tip of spray tube at 45 degree angle to hold it tight against carb throat/venturi and over tiny air bleeds to direct the force as you wash them out. One straight and one 45* are handy to have and you’ll probably use up 2 can of Berrymans anyway.

There’s several air bleeds and holes in carb throat, usually one near center and 2 or 3 at inlet/filter area of carb throat on or inside the rim. Sometimes these are in a boss and pressed or screwed in, others are a simple pin-hole bored into castings. Cycle carbs have the Needle Jet screwed into center of throat below slide piston too. I soak the carb body in carb cleaner then use carb spray cleaner and small wires, like  pieces of guitar string, G, B or high E string or similar wires depending on orifice size. The wire is used to gently swab out tiny air bleeds and clean jets. DON’T USE COPPER OR BRASS WIRE! Bending back & forth anneals and softens it so it quickly wants to break off right at edge of hole: now you’re screwed! Special sets of Carburetor Jet Cleaning Wires are available online, much like acetylene torch tip cleaners.

http://www.z1enterprises.com/Carburetor-Cleaner-wire-set-236.aspx

http://jet200.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=8&products_id=135

When using a thin piece of wire like guitar string to clean out tiny air bleeds and jets you don't want to ream them out. Run the cut end of wire across a sharpening stone/emery paper or fine file to remove burrs or really sharp edges before using!

In addition if you have several sizes of fine steel wires you can use the 'Go - No go' test method. Start small and gently insert progressively larger diameter wires into orifice as you clean until you find the largest that easily fits. This reveals just how clogged up things really are. Insert a small one with carb wet, wiggle it around a bit to break caked deposits, spray it some, try a bigger wire. You’re not out to resize the hole, just to break up deposits! Hard force is rarely needed! Take your time, carbs are expensive.

Both the aluminum body and brass jets are much harder than many think so gentle cleaning with wires and carb solvent only removes shellac and built up deposits without reaming or increasing orifice size. Even then it can take some work to get shellac out. I find that solvents evaporate quickly so I try to use minimum amounts, squirting repeatedly as I go along. Once I’ve progressed in cleaning then start using heavier amounts to blast orifices.

Inspect Jets closely and jot down any numbers for future reference, also seeing how carb is jetted now. On a rack of carbs if numbers aren’t visible use your wires as Go/No-Go gauges to make sure all Jets match. Again, when removing any adjustment needle screws write down the number of turns to remove so you’re ballpark close on reassembly. In float bowls a hard wooden or plastic stick with one end pointed, other end like a flat screwdriver helps clean bowl irregularities.

Most bike and small engine carbs have a brass Emulsion Tube that needs to be screwed out of lower carb body. This Emulsion Tube may/should have a Jet screwed into one end and has very tiny little holes running crosswise. I’ve come across several where gunk & shellac have these tiny holes completely hidden without a very close examination. A wad of fine bronze/brass wool, small toothbrush-style brass brush or Scotchbrite pad gently cleans and polishes Emulsion Tube to reveal those hidden holes. All Emulsion tubes I’ve ever seen have a hole at the far end/domed end opposite Jet in addition to crosswise holes in the sides. Makes very sure that’s open too.

Wires and carb spray cleaner working together remove hardened fuel deposits with solvent sprayed though all orifices afterwards. If available finish by hitting with compressed air while spray cleaner’s still wet, not mandatory but sometimes helps. Carb will be good as new, far better than just a soak or ‘Spray & wash’ job.

Air bleeds in combination with metering jets control fuel/air mixture when you crack throttle, with vacuum causing fuel to flow through Jets at proper rate at proper time. Blocked air bleed orifices can mean too much air through carb throat venturi while not drawing enough fuel, causing a Lean fuel condition and stumbling because weak vacuum signal isn’t pulling fuel in. In many cases one or two are more clogged than others, causing horrible imbalance in metering circuits and problems only apparent at certain rpm's.

Sometimes a too-high float level or Needle Jet Needle can do the opposite, causing carb to dump fuel and bog Rich. A clogged air filter or restricted intake will result in too rich condition too. Clogged Jets effect fuel flow throughout any operating ranges. Too lean and you may be buying new valves soon, after you pound the seized piston out of the scored cylinder bore.

If you get backfires through carb, not through exhaust, that indicates intake leaks somewhere between carb mounting base and cylinder head. Spray carb cleaner or WD40 around carb base and intake manifold areas [not air filter intake] with engine running to reveal leaks, as engine speeds up when you spray across leak. Even better, use a Propane Torch with gas turned on low setting, with TORCH NOT LIT, playing UN-LIT propane around head-to-manifold and carb gasket surfaces. Engine speeds up if there's a leak. Obviously serious safety precautions necessary with Propane Gas!

If machine runs okay or better with choke partially or fully closed this indicates you’re lean. Could be adjustment, clogged fuel metering jets, air bleed orifices or the Needle Jet Needle set too low.

On some small engines, motorcycles, ATC/ATV the carburetor has a ‘slide’ with a Fuel Metering Needle/Rod at bottom, which Needle rides up & down in Main Needle Jet/Fuel Inlet Jet hole. The little circlip or ‘E clip’ locking clip on needle can be moved to adjust. Unscrew cap where throttle cable enters carb body and gently lift out throttle slide. Slide only goes in one way so a groove in slide & corresponding lugs in body casting must be carefully aligned!  NEVER FORCE IT IN! It’s always a very light slip fit! This slide should slip right out and if it doesn't then soak carb longer and possibly use some WD40. Moving E clip UP moves Main Jet needle Down, causing more Lean condition. Moving E clip DOWN moves Jet Needle UP causing Rich metering. This is your basic off-idle Fuel Metering as Jet Needle moves to open or restrict Main Needle Jet fuel flow.

Small engines usually have 3 steps in air/fuel control: Idle Circuit, High Speed/Main Jet Circuit and WOT. The Idle Circuit is controlled by Idle Jet size and air bleed orifices and air adjustment or idle screw. Main Circuit is controlled by Slide Piston and Main Needle Jet, or by throttle butterfly and Main Jet. WOT Circuit is by air bleeds, Main Jet and Fuel Metering Jets with slide or butterfly Wide Open Throttle. Stumbling when coming off idle says the transition to Main is too Lean, where a bog says too Rich from what I’ve seen.

A check of all fuel lines, clamps, vent lines, gas cap gasket and cap vent holes, throttle slide and twist grip cable components is easiest when it’s all apart. If you don't currently have an inline fuel filter/s it’s a good time to install. Some automotive chassis grease is lightweight viscosity and used with a pin injector in grease gun it’s great for lubing up cables.

To ‘ring out’ gaskets: lay gasket material on part to be sealed. Use a small hammer and very light taps to leave clear impression in gasket telling you where to cut it for a nice home-made gasket! Other applications you may want to use different types of pressure instead of a hammer, especially with zinc or aluminum castings, like rolling or running a shaft, blunt object or whatever in the areas to leave impressions. You can buy special round hollow sharpened punches for punching out perfect holes, or take a piece of tubing and file and sharpen one end at an angle about 45*. When reassembling try not to over-torque any carb mounting gaskets. After being crushed to a thickness there’s no going back: if it leaks it’s permanent. Just a few inch-pounds are all it should take in most circumstances.

For my part, anybody who needs to copy this is free to do so, just don't take credit for writing it, thanks!
XLerate

« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 04:35:59 PM by XLerate »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2012, 06:47:54 PM »
The carbs were off the bike for about 6 months. I did remove the bowls to paint them. Everything inside was clean as a whistle, the PO said he had just had them cleaned before selling to me. The bike ran good when I got it, but it had a 4-2 system on it. The exhaust was so rusty that I had to discard and replace with the MAC 4-1.
I have difficulty believing that carb re-jetting was required for either of these exhaust systems.  That doesn't mean that a previous owner or carb rebuilder didn't either.  So, we have to treat the carbs as unknown until items are verified.

Looks like this weekend, I will check the valve gap, remove points plate to check the advance mechanism (not sure exactly what I'm looking for here, hopefully if something is wrong it will be obvious), points gap, timing, fire it back up, and see how she runs.
Check out chapter 6 of the Honda shop manual.  Fig 280 shows what it looks like and has prose regarding the effort.
If you dismantle the unit itself, mark it carefully so you don't reassemble it 180 degrees off.  That will screw up the spark big time.

Question is, do I need to remove the carbs in order to properly service/rejet?
It is not an absolute requirement.  It depends on your available tool selection and if some physical contortions are acceptable for you.  Your own mechanical prowess comes into play as well.  I've restored carbs to operation on the Cb550 without removing them several times.  However, I know exactly what to look for and what has to work and how to to prove it before buttoning it up for operation.

Have we seen the spark plug deposits yet?  (I forget) Were they equal at all four positions?   A different pattern would lead to more scrutiny of its corresponding carb.  If they are not all the same, you can't apply a jetting fix to all of them, until you figure out why one is different from the rest.

Be aware that the main jet has a rubber oring to seal it against the carb body.  If the prior rebuild did not replace them, they are likely to be hard and NOT reusable.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline sniper1

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2012, 07:12:19 PM »
Thanks TT and XLerate! and everyone else. I really appreciate all of the assistance.

I will be tearing into things this weekend. I will try and take pics as I go along to post and let you all chime in for advice (i think I'm gonna need it). I'll pull the plugs first and post pics to let you guys offer some insight as well.

Offline XLerate

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2012, 08:47:23 PM »
Excellent advice and the voice of much experience there from Two Tired!!

Offline sniper1

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2012, 06:15:43 AM »
I just pulled the plugs and attached these pictures. They are in order of the cylinders 1,2,3,4. 1 & 2 don't look too bad, 3 & 4 have a lot of black soot on them. Any advice from the experts?

Thanks.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2012, 12:20:40 PM »
Wow, no two plugs display the same deposits.  I'd want to know why that is.

All valves adjusted with proper clearance?
Is compression the same for all cylinders?
Are all the carb couplers leak free?

The list should include vacuum sync, but you said that was done.

If the dissimilarities persist.  Then you have to find out what is different among the carbs; Jetting, dirt, rust, shellac, etc.
I'll note that the emulsion tubes are often overlooked in the cleaning process, and can themselves be a cause of dissimilar deposit patterns, among other things.

If you do nothing, I'd at least swap plugs 1&3, to clean up that sooty plug.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline sniper1

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2012, 01:20:49 PM »
TT,

Here's what I did today, and the results:

1. Pulled plugs for you all to look at and offer advice.

2. Removed tappet covers and checked gap. All were relatively close, I readjusted just to make sure .05 intake, .08 exhaust.

3. Checked points gap. Both were close to spec, but readjusted anyway. Made sure the gap was .012 - .016.

4. Checked timing and noticed it was off slightly (not sure why). Readjusted and checked twice with static timing and believe I have it right.

5. Started it up (took a while BTW).

6. Still hard to get to idle properly, but may be a little bit better than it was.

7. Started raining and lightening like crazy. Bolt of lightening hit just in front of my house, I think I sharded myself.

8. As I rolled the throttle on, I noticed a puff of smoke coming from under the manifold behind the number 4 cylinder. I can see a very little bit of oil "boiling" there, its not running down, "just boiling". Everytime I blip the throttle there is that little puff of smoke. It is not coming from around the manifold, it is coming from the gasket between the head and the jugs on the rear of the engine.

9. It's not blowing any smoke out of the exhaust.

10. Another interesting observation is that #3 & #4 headers get very hot, #1 & #2 not nearly as much.

11. I'm at a loss......



Let me know if this plan sounds like the way to proceed:

1. Remove the rocker arm cover.
2. Replace "pucks." (I just ordered some to have on hand, just in case) I didn't replace these when I had it apart before, I just reused the old ones.
3. Retorque head. (I'm pretty sure I had it torqued right when I put it back together, but may have to recheck to see if anything loosned over the last 10 miles I put on it.)
4. Pull carbs and inspect and clean.
5. Slap it all back together again and pray that it runs good.

Anything else you can think of??

Would a rejetting possible be in order? or do I need to get everything else squared away first?

« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 01:41:22 PM by sniper1 »

Offline XLerate

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2012, 05:22:33 PM »
When the carbs were off the bike for 6 months, how were they stored? Did you start the bike again soon after painting carb bowls?

After removing carbs for 6 months, then reinstalling, you changed exhaust. Did you get it running then, and how did it run if yes?

You did a carb synch after reinstalling carbs, how was bike running with carbs reinstalled, but not yet synched?

You mention twice that it ran good before you worked on it so obviously something done to it most likely caused the problems. At what point, following what work you did, was it first noticed to be running poorly? That would be the clearest indication of what caused the problems, if the time line and work done is sorted out in order, according to when problems first appeared.

Another possibility is that some kind of little critter crawled in somewhere in one or more carbs or fuel lines or wherever and deposited larvae that clogged something up, or carbs had fuel and residues in them when removed from bike that dried up and turned to shellac while off the bike for 6 months.

Offline sniper1

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2012, 05:55:51 PM »
XLerate

When the carbs were off the bike for 6 months, how were they stored? Carbs were stored in the garage on a table with other parts.

 Did you start the bike again soon after painting carb bowls? No, it was several weeks later

After removing carbs for 6 months, then reinstalling, you changed exhaust. Did you get it running then, and how did it run if yes? I removed the carbs for 6 months, changed the exhaust, got it running but with issues as described.

You did a carb synch after reinstalling carbs, how was bike running with carbs reinstalled, but not yet synched? I think that once I synched them it actually ran worse.

You mention twice that it ran good before you worked on it so obviously something done to it most likely caused the problems. At what point, following what work you did, was it first noticed to be running poorly? As soon as I first started it.

I don't think anything would have crawled up in there, but who knows. I didn't take the carbs completely apart when I was redoing the bike, and it may be possible that some residual fuel dried and turned to shellac.

Offline XLerate

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2012, 06:09:30 PM »
Just trying to help get a focus: Okay, it ran good here, ran bad there, what happened in between? I don't have the answer. As for critters I don't know what they are but in California there's some tiny little creatures that climb inside any kind of hole it can find and lays larvae. I've seen it in carb passages less than 1/16" diameter! Another one does the same and packs the hole with some weird disgusting stuff, and another type packs the hole with a mud that dries almost rock hard. Just a possibility, but I don't know...

Offline sniper1

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2012, 05:48:14 PM »
OK, I synched the carbs again. The top pic is with the bike at 1100 RPM. Does this reading look normal? they all read the same.

The second pic is after I blip the throttle and it stays at 2600 rpm? Does this look normal or tell you anything?

While adjusting, I noticed that if I increased or decreased the adjustment screw of the #4 carb the bike would really start to rev high, really high, like about 3000-4000 RPM. I had a hard time getting that carb to settle back down to where it was even with the other three.

Please read next post also as I found another peculiar issue while I was messing with it.


Offline sniper1

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2012, 05:58:31 PM »
Another thing I noticed was that if I put a little pressure on the adjusting screws or the cap nuts (pushing down), on the #3 or #4 carb the bike will die. If I did the same on the #1 or #2 carbs, the needle on the guage would increase a little but the bike continued to run the same.

I also noticed while messing with it, that when the idle revved really high, if I rotated the throttle forward, it would settle back down to about 1100 RPM. but this only happened occasionally. I redid the throttle cables, but that didn't seem to help.

Any thoughts on where I need to go from here???

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '75 CB550 Idle Issues
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2012, 06:41:39 PM »
It look like #2 slide is slightly lower than the others, but is still within accepted tolerance.

Did you check the dials with a common vacuum source to make sure they read the same with equal vacuum?

The slide linkage components are not completely rigid. Pushing on these bits will make the engine run oddly. 

Did you eliminate carb coupler leaks?

Were the dial readings different before adjustment?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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