Topic: Please HELP!! Retainer sits a little higher !!!!

[onlyfinol]

Hi everyone!
I wanted to paint my rims last year and took apart, spokes, retainers, bearings, etc.. Now this summer when I finally got some time off decided to put everything together, which I did, but I noticed that my rear bearing retainer isn't flushing with the final driven flange... I turned all I could until got really tight but still about one or two millimeter away from the flange. Is it supposed to lay flush?? Since it has been a while from the day I took it off I can't really remember how it is supposed to go.
Please help!
Thanks

[bollingball]

Sorry I do not have the answer. But this is why you ALL WAYS use a camera In this day and age no reason not to. Live and learn.

Ken

[aperry]

Pretty sure it's supposed to be flush.  If memory serves correct, this is likely the seated bearing.  It probably means that you didn't fully seat the seated bearing against the inner flange.  Assuming you've already installed the center spacer and the other (floating) bearing, I don't think you can just tap the seated bearing in any further, because the center spacer will get crunched. 

If I'm right about all this (and frankly I'm not sure I am) then you'll probably need to move the floating bearing out a little bit in order to fully seat the this one.  That's not easy because you'll need to tap at its inner race from the other side.  I'm not a bearing expert, but I would think you can damage a bearing this way.

Sorry, not sure how helpful this is.  I also had some trouble with my rear bearings and I managed to find some really helpful threads on this forum. 

Aaron

[onlyfinol]

Sorry I do not have the answer. But this is why you ALL WAYS use a camera In this day and age no reason not to. Live and learn.

Ken

Mmmhh why does this advise sounds familiar???
Oh! That's right, my wife told me the same when I mentioned this issue in front of her.. Lol!
I hate to admit that you guys are right in this one, but the fact is that I did not take a picture and still wondering what to do. On the other hand, I'll tell you the same thing I said to my wife, I promise that I will take picture before taking apart something : )
Thanks!

[70CB750]

Chances are pictures would not help. Get a schematic and check the assembly against it. I am sure you can figure the problem out, just take your time.

[aperry]

Chances are pictures would not help. Get a schematic and check the assembly against it. I am sure you can figure the problem out, just take your time.

Pictures of what it looks like now won't help.  But pictures showing whether it was flush before disassembly, and pictures showing the seating flange might have helped the OP figure out the problem.

OP:  Someone much more knowledgeable that I explained the rear wheel axel housing assembly as a "sandwich" of spacers and bearings (and swingarm) that compress against each other to form a very specific and rigid measurement which, when assembled correctly, should allow the wheel to spin freely no matter how hard the axel nut is tightened.

The three pieces in that sandwich in play here I believe are the two bearings and the inner spacer.  Unfortunately I would bet that you need to move all three of these one or two mm so that the retainer is seated flush.  I would first search these forums to validate the the side you're having trouble with is indeed the "seated" side.  I think it is, because I had pretty much the same problem.  I suppose it's also possible that the retainer threads are damaged and it's not actually threading in all the way.  I suppose it's possible because of the staking that happens to the retainers.  But it seems unlikely though.  Hope this helps.

Aaron

[MCRider]

Chances are pictures would not help. Get a schematic and check the assembly against it. I am sure you can figure the problem out, just take your time.

Pictures of what it looks like now won't help.  But pictures showing whether it was flush before disassembly, and pictures showing the seating flange might have helped the OP figure out the problem.

OP:  Someone much more knowledgeable that I explained the rear wheel axel housing assembly as a "sandwich" of spacers and bearings (and swingarm) that compress against each other to form a very specific and rigid measurement which, when assembled correctly, should allow the wheel to spin freely no matter how hard the axel nut is tightened.

The three pieces in that sandwich in play here I believe are the two bearings and the inner spacer.  Unfortunately I would bet that you need to move all three of these one or two mm so that the retainer is seated flush.  I would first search these forums to validate the the side you're having trouble with is indeed the "seated" side.  I think it is, because I had pretty much the same problem.  I suppose it's also possible that the retainer threads are damaged and it's not actually threading in all the way.  I suppose it's possible because of the staking that happens to the retainers.  But it seems unlikely though.  Hope this helps.

Aaron

I may not have been that "'someone" I have certainly on many occasions explained the nature of the "spacer stack" and how it works.

AS to the original question, this is how I do it. The bearing with the retainer goes in first. YOu seat it as deep as it will go. THen send the retainer home. It should screw down flush. with that as the baseline, you build the rest. The bearing on the other side is drifted in only until it hits the inner spacer then you stop before putting everything in a bind. Then finish up. THe wheel should spin free no matter how tight the axle nut.

I've heard others explain it differently, and I stand to be corrected. Until then that's how I do it.

If you sent the bearing home that does not have the retainer, you must back it out a bit so you can drive the other side home. THis is not best practices as you should not be banging on the inside race of the bearing. But you may have no choice, if you didn't work with the retained bearing first.

[aperry]

I may not have been that "'someone" I have certainly on many occasions explained the nature of the "spacer stack" and how it works.

Yes, I think it was you.  And it was an "ah ha!" moment for me when I first read it (troubleshooting a similar problem as described here).  So thanks!

To the OP:  I tapped my "floating" bearing outward by using a long socket extension with a round socket on the end (inserted through the opposite side) and a hammer.  Lightly.  I did my best to grab as much of the race as possible to distribute the load, with hopes of avoiding damage to the bearing.  I accomplished everything and the bearing still rotates smoothly, so hopefully I didn't do much damage.  I suppose I'll find out at some point if I did.

It's probably worth a try at least.  If you do damage it, then a replacement bearing should be cheap and relatively easy to install.  Since the floating bearing is assembled last, you wouldn't need to remove the other parts in order to replace it.  You would remove the floating bearing with the same method I described (using as much force as needed) and tap the new one in until it's just touching the inner spacer.

Aaron

[onlyfinol]

Thanks for your reply, and all you are saying make sense, but! The bearing of that side ( retainer side ) can just go as far as the hub allows it. On other words, the bearing insertion is not limited by the spacer on this side of the hub. ?

[aperry]

Normally it would be limited by the hub, as you described.  There's a little ridge that the retainer bearing would hit and seat itself upon.  Then you would install the spacer and then the opposite side bearing, which has no ridge to seat itself on (that's why it's "floating").

But in your case I am theorizing that you didn't get the retainer bearing all the way to the ridge, before proceeding to install the spacer and the opposite (floating) bearing. 

So after you installed the retainer bearing and then the spacer, you probably tapped that floating bearing in just until it made contact with the spacer, which would mean it's one or two millimeters too deep.  So right now, if you try to push the retainer-side bearing deeper until it is "seated" (stopped by the ridge inside the hub), then you will damage the inner spacer because it will get crunched between the two bearings.  The inner spacer is thin and I do not think it's strong enough to withstand that driving force.  Nor is it meant to be tightly crunched between the two bearings.  I think first you have to push out the floating bearing so that you can free up some space to drive the retainer bearing the rest of the way to the ridge.

Aaron

PS:  When I encountered this, the mistake I made was to use the old throwaway bearing as a pad to hammer in the new bearing (so that I wouldn't directly hit the new bearing) and then, unfortunately, only sink the new bearing to the depth corresponding to the width of the old bearing, which turned out to be one or two millimeters shy of the ridge.  Sounds a lot like the issue you're having.

by the way, in this thread I've using "flange" and "ridge" interchangeably.  Not sure which is more accurate, but I think you know what I'm talking about.

[MCRider]

Thanks for your reply, and all you are saying make sense, but! The bearing of that side ( retainer side ) can just go as far as the hub allows it. On other words, the bearing insertion is not limited by the spacer on this side of the hub. ?

That's right, the retainer side bearing should drift in till it hits a ridge in the hub. Then install the retainer. If the retainer doesn't go down flush then maybe your retainer side bearing is wider than stock? If not, it should all work as described.

PS: I don't recall if we know what bike this is? I only know CB750 first hand up to K2.

[70CB750]

I have never seen mechanic to take pictures of what he is taking apart.

But there are many things i have not seen yet : D

My point was that the assembly has just one way to be correct. If it does not work try it again.  Beats relying on pictures in my book because it teaches you the logic of mechanical components/subassemblies.

My $0.02 only and the soap box mode is off now

[onlyfinol]

I will re do everything as explained and will post pictures and results as soon as I do it. By the way, sorry for not mentioning what bike we are talking about, it is a cb500.
Thank you all !

[onlyfinol]

I followed every step, and it really made a difference; however, I believe my bearings are a little bit thicker than the original because there is a small gap still.
Thank you guys !!!

Thanks for your reply, and all you are saying make sense, but! The bearing of that side ( retainer side ) can just go as far as the hub allows it. On other words, the bearing insertion is not limited by the spacer on this side of the hub. ?

That's right, the retainer side bearing should drift in till it hits a ridge in the hub. Then install the retainer. If the retainer doesn't go down flush then maybe your retainer side bearing is wider than stock? If not, it should all work as described.

PS: I don't recall if we know what bike this is? I only know CB750 first hand up to K2.

[lucky]

I have never seen mechanic to take pictures of what he is taking apart.

But there are many things i have not seen yet : D

My point was that the assembly has just one way to be correct. If it does not work try it again.  Beats relying on pictures in my book because it teaches you the logic of mechanical components/subassemblies.

My $0.02 only and the soap box mode is off now

Mechanics take pictures in their mind. Beginners need to take actual pictures.

[kweb]

Hey buddy I had the same problem a few weeks back with my '78 CB550. I bought some 1/8 " rubber matting and cut it to fit underneath the rubber cush bushings in the wheel hub. This resolved my problem without changing anything with the sprocket or wheel bearing retainer. One thing I learned throughout the rebuild process is that no matter how many pictures you take, when you take something apart and put it back together the exact same it doesn't always work the way it did. The rubber parts especially on these bikes harden and get smaller and when you pull them apart and put them back together they don't necessarily wirk the way they did before.

Here is a link to the thread I started a few weeks ago and there is a link in there to the guy that originally had the idea of the rubber matting.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=109476.msg1226728#msg1226728

[onlyfinol]

Thanks for the tip, now I do not feel alone in this issue 
I will post picture later on

Hey buddy I had the same problem a few weeks back with my '78 CB550. I bought some 1/8 " rubber matting and cut it to fit underneath the rubber cush bushings in the wheel hub. This resolved my problem without changing anything with the sprocket or wheel bearing retainer. One thing I learned throughout the rebuild process is that no matter how many pictures you take, when you take something apart and put it back together the exact same it doesn't always work the way it did. The rubber parts especially on these bikes harden and get smaller and when you pull them apart and put them back together they don't necessarily wirk the way they did before.

Here is a link to the thread I started a few weeks ago and there is a link in there to the guy that originally had the idea of the rubber matting.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=109476.msg1226728#msg1226728