Author Topic: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting  (Read 15459 times)

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2012, 08:58:31 PM »
Quote
Please quote your source for these numbers, as I believe they are contrived and made up to forward anti-gun sentiment.
Blah  blah  blah
You would just try discredit the source, {as you have always done}
This was plastered all over our news recently, you do the search....

Quote
Reforms to our gun laws mean Australia is far safer than the US, where the likelihood of being shot is 15 times greater.

Quote
But, it is always "possible" for any individual to exercise their "free will" and rage against society.  That is the very risk of a free society.

And even easier if they are all armed....

Quote
How do you explain the recent increase in firearm sales while the crime rate has decreased during that same period?

Your decrease is still far above the gun related death rates of most, if not all other Western nations, look that up, its nearly as bad as your incarceration rates. You continue to compare the US to the US, fairly safe argument method.

Quote
But, a few Molotov cocktails tossed into the theater would have been just as tragic.

Didn't happen, the sky could fall in as well, it is extremely well documented in most other parts of the world {yes the US isn't the world, take your blinkers off and research the opposite side to the argument for a change}, that countries with little gun ownership have less gun related crime {I wonder why?} and generally less crime overall, just like countries that have large gun ownership exhibit the opposite result.... Saying that if you take away the guns everyone will find other methods has been dispelled over and over again. I would hate to be that worried about my personal safety that i would be forced to carry a gun, i feel sorry for you if thats the way you think. Reeducation of the population would be a good start {and not with guns} to resolving the problem, Its a "mentality thing", The USA is seen as Gun mad and shoot first and ask questions later to the rest of the world, and that isn't my opinion, it is wide spread, you can look that up as well....

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Online seanbarney41

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2012, 09:16:07 PM »
Guns are really loud, much louder than 110 dB, which could unintentionally damage an innocent bystanders hearing or disturb my peaceful neighborhood :'(...maybe gun owners deserve to be run over by motorcycles with properly baffled factory exhaust systems...maybe loud motorcycle riders should be executed by neighborhood vigilante groups armed with illegally silenced firearms :) ;) :D ;D
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Offline scottly

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2012, 09:18:26 PM »
Due to some recent developments in my immediate neighborhood, I asked local law enforcement just this evening to give some clarification regarding AZ's recently changed concealed carry laws. As much as I dislike the idea of the necessity, I do take some comfort knowing I can do so legally. I've never had to fire a gun in self defense, and I hope I never have to, but I will if I need to...
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2012, 10:12:17 PM »
People in this country increasingly live in fear, it's very obvious in opinions posted in this thread, as in many others. Pretty sad and begs the question why?, compared to other democracies . Don't know of any Euro country with such a mindset... zero fear, not even on the radar.... also begs the Q, how much is this 'fear' a product of Gov'mint? ( sorry , said 1 political word ).
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Offline scottly

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2012, 10:17:20 PM »
google "operation RX".
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2012, 11:06:27 PM »
Let's face it.. it's a massive arms race. We all know the bad guys are armed up-to-the-teeth, so 'us' good guys have no option than to do the same with even more firepower.
Reality says that the 'bad guys' are not the threat, more likely your next door neighbor with that untreated mental illness and an obsession with certain news media and 'opionators'....... even a total gun ban imposed tomorrow would only curtail gun usage after what, say, 500 years so awash in guns and ammo are all parts of this country. So it just escalates and breeds more fear, no end in sight. :(
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2012, 11:13:45 PM »
Self-centered and motivated wackos will find a way to kill people.  They don't need guns, as this individual (eligible for parole in less than 3 years) demonstrated, killing 87.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

I wholeheartedly concur.

It seems people want to take away more and more of our liberties that were granted to us by our forefathers with great wisdom and forethought. The second amendment was written to protect the populace from a potentially corrupt government. They intended the populace to be armed with state of the art weaponry to defend their liberties from tyrannical government. Whether you choose to bear arms or not is your choice but it is a liberty we should not take away any time soon. I do not care to try and make people from other countries with police state laws understand the concept of liberty and democracy and the responsibilities involved in defending both. You can make your peace where you decide to reside, if you have a problem with where you live, then by all means move.

I do not live in fear, I understand the price of liberty and certain freedoms and that is eternal vigilance, not fear.
The price of the ability to bear arms does mean in some situations being a little less safe and the potential for violence but I am willing to live with that than have the alternate of not having the choice.

My heart and condolences goes out to the people injured and killed and the families affected in the mayhem that happened on that fateful night. The shooter was clearly a chicken #$%* bastard that decided to take his frustration and anger out on innocent people that had no way to defend themselves.

However like Ofreen said an intelligent person that takes the time and plans will find a way to maim and kill scores of people given the ways and means. This cat just took the shortest path, guns. If you ban all the guns the only people that have them would be criminals and the military and personally I would not want to live in a place like that.     
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Offline trueblue

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2012, 12:52:14 AM »
Seriously, open your eyes, like Retro said before there is actually a world outside of the US.  Just look at some simple stats, Australia has 20% of all homicides related to firearms, where as the US has 65%.  Suicide rates are also higher by almost 5x if there is a gun in the house.  Source:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence .  In Australia we are still allowed to own a gun, but you must provide a good reason for owning one.  It isn't that hard to get a gun license, providing your reasoning for owning it is sound and if you have any conviction in relation to violence, this instantly bans you from owning guns.  Our system isn't perfect but it is a lot better than a country that says anyone can own a gun, just so they can feel "free".  It gets a little tiring hearing Americans preach on and on about how they are free so they are allowed to blah blah blah.  At the end of the day you are no more free than us Australians, except we have a few laws to protect stupid people from themselves.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2012, 01:01:17 AM »
Quote
Please quote your source for these numbers, as I believe they are contrived and made up to forward anti-gun sentiment.
Blah  blah  blah
You would just try discredit the source, {as you have always done}
Of course.  It is always quite easy to do, as the selected anti-gun sources are so typically unreliable and often contrived.

This was plastered all over our news recently, you do the search....
...And who runs your news outlets?   Speaking of blah blah.

Your decrease is still far above the gun related death rates of most, if not all other Western nations, look that up, its nearly as bad as your incarceration rates. You continue to compare the US to the US, fairly safe argument method.
As usual, you missed the point.  If crime was truly linked to gun availability, it would increase with gun population increases.  It doesn't. And it never has. So, either the reverse is true, or the data points aren't linked in any way at all to crime.  Therefore, gun availability does not cause crime, cultures do. 
  I was once very anti-gun.  Then I found out all the lies I'd been fed and what was really going on.  I learned about guns and how they are simply just another tool.  Powerful yes, but just a tool.  Some never allow themselves to see the actual truth of the matter.  That makes me sad.

The USA is seen as Gun mad and shoot first and ask questions later to the rest of the world, and that isn't my opinion, it is wide spread, you can look that up as well....
And which government run media has convinced you of that?  Would that be the same one that took away your guns for your own good?
I suspect you've never even heard of Gary Kleck in your media outlets.  Every 13 seconds an American gun owner uses a firearm in defense against a criminal.  You haven't heard about this because it doesn't fit into your predispositioned agenda.

Anyway, smaller population densities lead to more cooperative and less stressful people.  AU doesn't have anywhere near the population density as the US. Making comparisons, country based, has no fundamental merit, and is seriously disingenuous, perhaps even deluded.  Our society isn't like yours, and you will find out as your population grows and competition for resources becomes more intense.  People get nasty when they can't get what they want, and even nastier when they can't get what they need.  Then, the guy with the biggest club will make you his #$%*, and all your government will do is wander out and fill out a report form about it, eventually.  The smart ones will either bed down closely with government officials, or find effective tools to protect themselves (illegally, of course), and take their chances between the two evils.

Study basic animal behavior.  Humans are no different in behavior, no matter where on earth they are.  I will admit, our American family values have deteriorated since the 50's.  That is about when our population density was about the same a present day AU.  As your government takes more control over your personal life, your quality of life will also diminish as well as your remaining freedoms.  I've lived through part of this transformation.  And, it is not pretty.  It will get worse until something reduces the population density.

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Offline trueblue

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2012, 01:18:14 AM »
Ok TT if you want to bring population density to the argument then look at the UK which has only 8% of all homicides from firearms, and their population density is over 8 times that of the US.  I'm sorry but the American opinion of owning guns prevents crime is a load of horse $h!t, you don't have to look too hard to figure it out.  I personally like guns and own a couple myself and yes they are a tool, but they aren't a tool for self protection like most Americans seem to think.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2012, 02:40:14 AM »
Ok TT if you want to bring population density to the argument then look at the UK which has only 8% of all homicides from firearms,
Of course their firearm homicide statistics are low, they've banned all guns and destroyed them!  What about the overall homicide rate?

They also seem to have a pretty oppressive government with spy cameras prevalent everywhere, and an intrusive police force.  They are very much into micro management of their people.  No thanks.  I'll put that off as long as I am able. 

But again, different culture.  I maintain that guns availability alone does not play a significant role.

For density based comparisons, compare say, London's homicides with those of a smaller density town or city within the UK where the culture and government are similar.

When you do the same within the US where the culture is similar among density samples, you'll generally find larger cities generally have more homicides and crime than do smaller ones.  (And those with more restrictive gun control laws worse than those that don't, btw.)

The same ought to be the case in AU when comparing higher density cities to lower density cites.

I'm too sleepy to look up the latest numbers right now.  But, you also have to watch out for biased or misleading data collection sources.  That can be hard to sort through and corroborate with parallel sources.  Finding statistics is easy, finding credible and relevant statistics, not so much.

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Offline demon78

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2012, 03:43:44 AM »
It's unfortunate that this has spiralled into the gun debate when it should be about how do we deter these #$%*s, because I'm a father I've seen kids growing up and doing dumb things, although not many stick their hands on the hot stove twice, there is a deterrence factor, there is no joy singing in singeing fingers twice, so killing your kid to prevent them from touching the burner is a way out yes, but some outsider is sure to complain, so there has to be a better way.
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Offline trueblue

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2012, 03:47:46 AM »
I'm sorry but you will not convince me that there is no connection between letting any numb nuts who can breathe own a gun and a high gun related crime rate....  You obviously have no idea on England and their gun control laws. 
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Offline ofreen

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2012, 04:52:03 AM »
I do not live in fear, I understand the price of liberty and certain freedoms and that is eternal vigilance, not fear.

Good post.  The excerpt above defines a mindset that is hard for many people to understand.  Because they are afraid, they project their fear onto others.  There is a difference between being prepared and being "afraid."  People that understand this are taking a wider view of the situation than those that think, for example, that limiting the capacity of a magazine is going to somehow slow down some SOB who has decided he is justified in taking innocent lives.  None of the "reasonable" gun control suggestions being made right now would have made a bit of difference in the incident under discussion.

And TT, keep up the good arguments.


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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2012, 11:17:54 AM »
I'm sorry but you will not convince me that there is no connection between letting any numb nuts who can breathe own a gun and a high gun related crime rate....  You obviously have no idea on England and their gun control laws.

Fair enough, you've decided, and no reasonable discussion will change your mind.  I know enough about UK gun laws to know they will not benefit those within the US.  In fact, they will harm far more people than will be helped.  Restrictive gun control laws benefit government, not the populace.  Long ago we won our independence from the UK so we don't have to live under their laws. 

But, within your statement above, there demonstrates a lack of knowledge about existing gun control laws in the US.  (Some of which are unconstitutional.)

I wonder if that is really the main point?  You basically hate the US constitution, and the fundamental right for the US to govern itself, correct?
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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2012, 11:35:42 AM »
I'm not advocating gun control and do not deserve an 'America, Love it or leave it ' response. I fully understand the 2nd. Amt. It's been explained to me many times by my U.S. friends.
It is O.K. to be from somewhere else in the world and express an opinion based on a 30 year experience in a  democratic culture that's not the U.S....( without being told it's a police state  :o ). So, the reason to be armed today, is in case the Gov. should suddenly start to attack the people, not to protect yourself from real and imagined threats in the society you live in ?
To protect yourself from those ( fill-in the blank ) people that don't have exactly the same views as you do ?
I just saw the perp. of this latest atrocity on T.V.   He is clearly insane IMO. The real question is why/how  did someone function in society and be so unstable without anyone noticing anything wrong ??
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2012, 11:40:37 AM »
Some people would rather have big daddy and nanny watching their every move and putting rubber bumpers on all the sharp objects "to feel a little more safe". Not all people feel that way.

I would quote Benjamen Franklin concerning his views on liberty and safety but I am afraid the meaning would be utterly lost on most.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2012, 11:43:31 AM »
I'm not advocating gun control and do not deserve an 'America, Love it or leave it ' response. I fully understand the 2nd. Amt. It's been explained to me many times by my U.S. friends.
It is O.K. to be from somewhere else in the world and express an opinion based on a 30 year experience in a  democratic culture that's not the U.S....( without being told it's a police state  :o ). So, the reason to be armed today, is in case the Gov. should suddenly start to attack the people, not to protect yourself from real and imagined threats in the society you live in ?
To protect yourself from those ( fill-in the blank ) people that don't have exactly the same views as you do ?
I just saw the perp. of this latest atrocity on T.V.   He is clearly insane IMO. The real question is why/how  did someone function in society and be so unstable without anyone noticing anything wrong ??
Its not uncommon for the "clearly insane" to be completely aparently sane, until that moment when they are not. There were the suspicious activities, deliveries to the apt. etc., but those are not actionable.  There are many people walking around right now who "look" just like him, but aren't in the least insane, now or later.  Your "real question" is a non-question in a society like ours.
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2012, 11:51:55 AM »
As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.



Being necessary to the security of a free state. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 11:54:18 AM by DukieFrankenkit »
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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2012, 11:53:07 AM »
We will have to wait and see about this individual, I'm sure we will find-out all about him in the coming weeks. See what his friends and family say about him and try to make sense of something so senseless. Can nothing be learned from these tragedies ?
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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2012, 12:08:57 PM »
We will have to wait and see about this individual, I'm sure we will find-out all about him in the coming weeks. See what his friends and family say about him and try to make sense of something so senseless. Can nothing be learned from these tragedies ?
There is a saying applied to financial crisis: "In the short run we learn a lot, in the medium run we learn a little, in the long run we learn nothing".  The evidence of this is Tulip Mania of the 1600s, and the dozens of crisis occurring since them. They all follow the same pattern: Seems like a good idea, everybody piles in, prices get out of hand, debt levels grow, prices burst, many are wiped out, government knee jerks with regulation to see it doesn't happen again. Yet it happens again and again, same pattern, to recent times.

Same thing with wackos: they all follow the same path. Then the climax, then the "why didn't we know?" Then the knee jerk regulations that solve nothing except to burden those who had nothing to do with it.  And we sit back and wait for the next wacko.

Its called human nature.
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2012, 12:34:04 PM »
People in this country increasingly live in fear, it's very obvious in opinions posted in this thread, as in many others. Pretty sad and begs the question why?, compared to other democracies . Don't know of any Euro country with such a mindset... zero fear, not even on the radar.... also begs the Q, how much is this 'fear' a product of Gov'mint? ( sorry , said 1 political word ).


Not the Gov'mint but the NRA and the gun lobby that instill the fear.

  I have lived in a major metropolitan area for 36 years always in the central city, never have witnessed a violent crime, never have seen a gun drawn in anger by police or a perp, never been in a situation where I needed to be armed.  I even have occasions where I drive through the worst part of the city on a semi regular basis.  It causes me no sense of alarm.  From my perspective some of the folks here just seem paranoid or use guns as a compensation factor for other shortcomings.  Is it really that bad in the rest of the country and I am living in a frozen tundra paradise? If a paradise please don't think of coming here......we don't need or want the paranoia and fear. 

Bad things do happen here....I see it in the news but it's just never been a part of my life experience.  As someone else said " If I had to live in a place were I felt I needed to be armed I would move." 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 12:56:42 PM by srust58 »

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2012, 01:05:12 PM »
On another thought.... Some think conceal and carry is the answer.  There is a conceal and carry law in Colorado so that didn't help in this situation.  This guy legally bought the guns including an assault rifle.  He could have just as easily gotten a carry permit if he wanted to.  The question that needs to be asked is why would anyone be allowed to purchase assault rifles with 100 clip magazines? (the real reason for the high killed and wounded toll)  I guess the NRA and the gun fetish wackos need them for target shooting and hunting. :P
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 01:07:20 PM by srust58 »

Offline ofreen

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2012, 01:07:03 PM »

Not the Gov'mint but the NRA and the gun lobby that instill the fear.


Again, I have to point out the fear thing is way overstated.  It reminds me of what has become a well-traveled story, this version in Kansas.

I made a traffic stop on an elderly lady the other day for speeding on U.S. 166 Eastbound at Mile Marker 73 just East of Sedan, KS. I asked for her driver's license, registration, and proof of insurance. The lady took out the required information and handed it to me. In with the cards I was somewhat surprised (due to her advanced age) to see she had a conceal carry permit. I looked at her and ask if she had a weapon in her possession at this time.

She responded that she indeed had a .45 automatic in her glove box. Something — body language, or the way she said it — made me want to ask if she had any other firearms. She did admit to also having a 9mm Glock in her center console. Now I had to ask one more time if that was all. She responded once again that she did have just one more, a .38 special in her purse. I then asked her what was she so afraid of.

She looked me right in the eye and said, "Not a damn thing."
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Offline demon78

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Re: Aurora, CO movie theater shooting
« Reply #74 on: July 23, 2012, 01:16:06 PM »
Two Tired why would he hate the US constitution? I know I don't, I don't think about it, it's your problem not mine, unless you're trying to shove it down my throat, in which case I don't hate the piece of paper, it's you that is the problem in my mind, as far as nanny state goes look to your own problems with that and I'll worry about my government myself, I don't live in a dictatorship at the moment and will probably be dead before it gets here, no matter what the Tory party of Canada wants. But I'm beginning to think that no one here is prepared to think outside the box so it'll go around and around for ever with no solution in site in which case guys keep it to yourselves I don't want to hear ad nausea about #$%*ing guns they are nothing more than a tool a blunt one at that.
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