Topic: Steering head bearings: CB750K -edited 10/09

[super pasty white guy]

Hondaman:

Here's what I measured on my '76 F.

Steering head bearings
     Inch
   Top OD 1.910" ID 1.023"
   Bottom OD 1.969" ID 1.178"
     Metric
   Top OD 48.56mm id 26mm
   Bottom OD 50mm ID 30mm

Dave

[HondaMan]

Thanks, Super: those are different from some of the K2/K4 numbers I have. I'll take a close look and see if they might just be Production tolerance numbers.

I am having 10 cups professionally ground on the O.D. to match the ones I just removed from my K2 (90,000+ miles on them) for the 07100 top bearing. The full load this bearing sees is less than 400 pounds laterally, so removing .058" won't hurt a thing (obvoiusly hasn't in 25+ years...). I'm looking into the bottom bearing next, but suspect it to be stock or a discontinued part number, as it does not match a current Timken number. If I can find some NOS of these cups, I'll get them, otherwise I'll have the same shop grind up some bottom ones. This bearing sees the biggest load, on the order of 1000 pounds, but it's rated for many, many times that much.

[madbunny]

hondaman 2 items of note:

1. the L45449 is current production.
just go to timken's bearing search and type in the cone number. it is listed as current production with cup numer L45410. i was still making those baby's on the line at timken's canton plants six or seven years ago.

2. tapered roller bearings are case hardened, not through hardened like ball bearings. (hard crispy outside with a soft malleable inner for us non technical types) so by removing the material from the o.d. or i.d. you are removing some of the case hardened steel. whether this is really worth worrying about is debatable as the shock loads are probably dooty-squat on a cb compared to it's intented application. just something to consider.

another thing to consider is that if they say made in the usa i might have made them, on the night shift, slightly less than sober, while being hazed by my co-workers.

lemme know how the grind goes as i still have two timken spinny finger toys hanging out next to my laptop...

[HondaMan]

another thing to consider is that if they say made in the usa i might have made them, on the night shift, slightly less than sober, while being hazed by my co-workers.

lemme know how the grind goes as i still have two timken spinny finger toys hanging out next to my laptop...

Wow! You built these? I've always wondered: how do they get the rollers into the cages?    It's way cool to talk to someone who actually worked on these!

I've got 10 units ground to the 1.909" O.D. nominal dimension, sitting on my desk. The old one varied from 1.910 to 1.9008 O.D., so we took the middle road. Even a slight bit loose won't hurt a thing, might even make installation easier for a change.

Now, the lower ones. My old set has an untouched cup in the bottom side, the L45449. Trouble is, its O.D. dimension fits the bike, and the new ones are bigger by a few thousandths. I'll have to grind these, too, but wonder why the change? I remember the bearing guy in Macomb, IL, pulling it off the shelf and handing it to me, after which I installed it, cold, with a brass bearing inserter. No grinding. Hmm...

[rabidelf]

Is this only for 750's? Am I going to go through these same problems when I re-assemble my 72 500? I assumed getting tapered bearings would be easy. P.S. my Honda label fell off my alternator cover!

[HondaMan]

The same bearings fit the CB500. They also fit a long list of Hondas, which I'll be posting when I get them figured out.

Mine fell off, too. At least I heard it when it did. I got upset about it and drilled a hole into the case and tapped it it for real. Then Honda came out with a fix. 

[puppytrax]

Mine fell off, too. At least I heard it when it did. I got upset about it and drilled a hole into the case and tapped it it for real. Then Honda came out with a fix. 

What was the fix?   

[750duo]

While on the subject of replacement bearings:

Just picked up the 5 bearings required for the wheels from BDI

They were marked TIMKEN/FAFNIR "Made in Japan"

My BDI guy says that the "really high quality" Timkens (Fafnir) are made in Japan now and the low quality come from China.

Go Figure 

[kach_me]

hondaman 2 items of note:

1. the L45449 is current production.
just go to timken's bearing search and type in the cone number. it is listed as current production with cup numer L45410. i was still making those baby's on the line at timken's canton plants six or seven years ago.

2. tapered roller bearings are case hardened, not through hardened like ball bearings. (hard crispy outside with a soft malleable inner for us non technical types) so by removing the material from the o.d. or i.d. you are removing some of the case hardened steel. whether this is really worth worrying about is debatable as the shock loads are probably dooty-squat on a cb compared to it's intented application. just something to consider.

another thing to consider is that if they say made in the usa i might have made them, on the night shift, slightly less than sober, while being hazed by my co-workers.

lemme know how the grind goes as i still have two timken spinny finger toys hanging out next to my laptop...

I work at NTN-Bower (read a competitor for Timken).  I'm having the engineering, geeky types look into a suitable tapered bearing from NTN.  I'm certain that we make it or something very close....

[kach_me]

another thing to consider is that if they say made in the usa i might have made them, on the night shift, slightly less than sober, while being hazed by my co-workers.

lemme know how the grind goes as i still have two timken spinny finger toys hanging out next to my laptop...

Wow! You built these? I've always wondered: how do they get the rollers into the cages?    It's way cool to talk to someone who actually worked on these!

I've got 10 units ground to the 1.909" O.D. nominal dimension, sitting on my desk. The old one varied from 1.910 to 1.9008 O.D., so we took the middle road. Even a slight bit loose won't hurt a thing, might even make installation easier for a change.

Now, the lower ones. My old set has an untouched cup in the bottom side, the L45449. Trouble is, its O.D. dimension fits the bike, and the new ones are bigger by a few thousandths. I'll have to grind these, too, but wonder why the change? I remember the bearing guy in Macomb, IL, pulling it off the shelf and handing it to me, after which I installed it, cold, with a brass bearing inserter. No grinding. Hmm...

Hondaman... the rollers are loaded into the cage (retainer) then the inner race is put in the assembly.  The whole she-bang is run through a lite press and ta-da! you've got a roller bearing. 

[kach_me]

another thing to consider is that if they say made in the usa i might have made them, on the night shift, slightly less than sober, while being hazed by my co-workers.

lemme know how the grind goes as i still have two timken spinny finger toys hanging out next to my laptop...

Wow! You built these? I've always wondered: how do they get the rollers into the cages?    It's way cool to talk to someone who actually worked on these!

I've got 10 units ground to the 1.909" O.D. nominal dimension, sitting on my desk. The old one varied from 1.910 to 1.9008 O.D., so we took the middle road. Even a slight bit loose won't hurt a thing, might even make installation easier for a change.

Now, the lower ones. My old set has an untouched cup in the bottom side, the L45449. Trouble is, its O.D. dimension fits the bike, and the new ones are bigger by a few thousandths. I'll have to grind these, too, but wonder why the change? I remember the bearing guy in Macomb, IL, pulling it off the shelf and handing it to me, after which I installed it, cold, with a brass bearing inserter. No grinding. Hmm...

Crap! I should really read your posts before replying.  WTH were you doing in Macomb?  That's where I live!  It really is a small world!

[HondaMan]

Wow!
Is "Western Wheels" still there, on the (at that time, 1971-1974) west end of town, where the road turns a little to the south? I built that shop with 3 other guys. That's where this whole "Hondaman" thing started, after I escaped from Peoria (Pekin Reapers). I raced out of that shop, along with Gus Traeder's TNT boys from TNT in Missouri. "WW" was one of Gus's outlet shops where he could "hide" the TNT profits by supporting another shop with them, while still racing for fun & profit. It was a GREAT time!

The bearing factory there (at that time, Bower bearing) is where all my steering head bearings came from. I walked into the Will Call counter with dimensions after school (4 PM, factory closed for the day), and they told me to come back the next day, they'd have them. Did this many, many times. They were making bearings for Timken at Bower (?), but I was glad to have real Timken. That's why I'm surprised that bearing cataloges I find don't have the 30mm x 50.05mm size (lower bearing) in them now: I could buy them off-the-shelf in Macomb!

Where do you live in Mac?

[kach_me]

The shop has been many, many things since you were last here, but now it is a motorcycle repair joint (if I'm thinking of the same place).  The Bower that you used to shop at is still there but is now a division of NTN (Japanese co.) "NTN-Bower" and no longer selling or making for Timken... they're the competitor.  I'll have to see if we've got a similar assembly, but it would be easier to match if I had the Timken number. 

I live on the west side of town about 6 blocks southeastt of the DQ. 

[kach_me]

Wow!
Is "Western Wheels" still there, on the (at that time, 1971-1974) west end of town, where the road turns a little to the south? I built that shop with 3 other guys. That's where this whole "Hondaman" thing started, after I escaped from Peoria (Pekin Reapers). I raced out of that shop, along with Gus Traeder's TNT boys from TNT in Missouri. "WW" was one of Gus's outlet shops where he could "hide" the TNT profits by supporting another shop with them, while still racing for fun & profit. It was a GREAT time!

The bearing factory there (at that time, Bower bearing) is where all my steering head bearings came from. I walked into the Will Call counter with dimensions after school (4 PM, factory closed for the day), and they told me to come back the next day, they'd have them. Did this many, many times. They were making bearings for Timken at Bower (?), but I was glad to have real Timken. That's why I'm surprised that bearing cataloges I find don't have the 30mm x 50.05mm size (lower bearing) in them now: I could buy them off-the-shelf in Macomb!

Where do you live in Mac?

My neighbor is an motorcycle enthusiast that has been around forever.  He remembers several shops in that area.  He mentioned John Alexander, Steve Williams, and a Foxall (can't remember the first name).  Anyway, do any of those names ring a bell with you?  He knew of the affliation with the TNT group and mentioned that his son's first motorcycle came from "P & W" as he remembered.  His name is Rick Williams.  Am I getting warmer here?

[HondaMan]

I knew some "Williams", but over there, you can't throw a dead cat without hitting a "Williams", if I remember right. I was attending WIU to get my Law Adminstration degree back then (after I'd come from Bradley in Peoria, Electronics Engineering). Finished in March '74.

We had a 16-year old kid at the shop named Foxton or Foxall or something like that. He started out changing tires and fixing flats, a skinny kid. Then one day, he was riding a customer's bike on a test ride after the flat repair and crashed, without his helmet, into a car. I jumped into his Mustang in the lot and went and got him, in deep shock, and took him to the hospital. He "lost" about 3 days of memory after that and was off work for 2 weeks before he came back and quit to take some long time off. Nice kid. That was in the summer of '74, right when I left for Colorado. I hope he was OK.

Bearings: I just came across a KML bearing number that may help us all out. It's #32006X, with ISO 355 class number T4CC030. This is a 30mm ID bearing (just right for the lower end of the triple tree), but the cup is 55mm OD. If we can find a 52mm OD or 50.005mm OD cup with the same taper, we're home free. Grinding off 5mm from the 55 will leave insufficient raceway, but removing 2mm from a 52 is no big deal. Can you find a "cross" for this type? 

The 07100 series has the 50.005mm cup, but the taper is 3 degrees different, like the crummy boxed Japanese sets you can get. This makes a poor long-term match.

[pelicanwheel]

OK..I'm planning on taking my triple tree to the powder coater today.  Can anyone tell me the easiest way to remove the races off of the tree.  There has penty of discussions of how to remove the races from the frame, but I can't find how to remove them from the tree.

Thanks,

Pelican

[dusterdude]

hondaman,ive been checking on bearings here for you,can you tell me the od on the race for that bearing?

[dusterdude]

damn,thats a whacked out bearing size.

[HondaMan]

OK..I'm planning on taking my triple tree to the powder coater today.  Can anyone tell me the easiest way to remove the races off of the tree.  There has penty of discussions of how to remove the races from the frame, but I can't find how to remove them from the tree.

Thanks,

Pelican

From the tree is a little tougher: you can drive it off with a chisel or punch if you're saving it, or cut it with a cutoff wheel in a Dremel tool and split it with a chisel. Here's some pix of me at it.

[HondaMan]

hondaman,ive been checking on bearings here for you,can you tell me the od on the race for that bearing?

The OD on the lower is 50.005mm, but a 50.000mm will do nicely. The ID for the lower is 30mm, that's where the trouble starts.

[pelicanwheel]

Thank you hondaman!  You're the bestest!

I didn't want to lose another day getting the last of my parts to the powder coater, so I took it with the race still on the stem.  Now that I know for certain that I will do the roller bearing upgrade, I'll simply cut the race off once I get it from the coater (I know, I know, backwards here).

As for the roller bearings, I've followed the discussions about using Timkens, but are the kits from sources like All Balls that bad?  Also, are the kits really just drop in...meaning...have they customized thier cups to fit, or did they have them custom made?  Any one knows?

Thanks all...I really think you all will enjoy pics of the completed bike (hopefully by end of September).   I've modified some things, but all mods was done from a perspective of: if you didn't know what the bike looked like from the factory already, you wouldn't be able to tell something was off by looking at my modified bike.  For example..I chrome plated both wheel hubs...

Pelican

[HondaMan]

I might have to buy a lower set from the All Balls people to see what they've got going. I suspect it's the same routine I'm doing: modifying some stock units to fit. If I do the lowers this way, it will be Timken or FAG, whomever can get me closest. Machinists grind off by the .001" increments in grinders and $$$. I have the uppers done: I still have to make up the spacers on my lathe.

The corral of Fords in my driveway have been keeping me away from my Honda games lately. At least, I think I have the Fords all running now, even the Linc.

[pelicanwheel]

I just got the kit from all balls last night...I'll take a look with the calipers and let you know what I find.

Pelican

[Jinxracing]

I'm gearing up to order some new steering head bearings and wondered if anyone had come up with a solution/part numbers for fitting Timkens?

[HondaMan]

I just got the kit from all balls last night...I'll take a look with the calipers and let you know what I find.

Pelican

Thanks, Pelican: I've been embroilled in moving my Airstream somewhere because the city gave me a ticket for parking in in the back, on the driveway I made for it, because a (jealous) neighbor complained...   

..sure uses up my time...