Author Topic: Steering head bearings: CB750K -edited 10/09  (Read 8903 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Steering head bearings: CB750K -edited 10/09
« on: June 21, 2006, 09:40:40 PM »
Jaknight and several others have asked about this, so here's my history with them.

There are some Japanese-made "kits" available for the steering head, with typically use NKK, KOYO, DAIDO, or other Nippon-related bearings. Most come in a green box with a spacer washer that fits on the bottom of the triple tree's post, UNDER the dust seal (if you still have one!) so as to push the dust seal up into the steering head collar upon assembly. These "kits" usually have a top bearing that sits too high in the race, for the purpose of providing an extra .040" of clearance to nestle into the bottom of the steering crown (there's a cast-in recession under there for the old ball race). (I think M3Racing and PartsNMore carry these kits, among others).

This extra height causes some troubles, which in the long run can result in shorter life and not-as-solid front end stability. Biggest trouble: the top bearing, when tightened as proper, distorts the roller cage and the bearings are forced into a slightly unnatural location, high in the race. The result is a hard-to-feel torque-in point when you're reassembling, and some users don't get them set right as a result.

There are 2 solutions. First step for both is GREASE THE BEARINGS. Don't forget that, wheel bearing grease is fine. Also, the races get driven into the steering head, the bearings sit on the post.

1. If you use the Japanese "kits", then you must follow this procedure to "set" the bearings, and do it again after 100-200 miles of riding. You might find you need to do it again next year, but then it will settle in: 
A. C-stand the bike, then either have someone sit on and balance back the bike so the front tire just rests on the ground, or jack up the engine to the same point. There should be about 50 lbs or so on the front wheel.
B. With the upper steering crown raised about 1/4" (or removed altogether) so you can get to the spanner nut, tighten the nut while constantly turning the forks, stop-to-stop. Tighten until the drag is real heavy. It probably won't stop altogether, but it will be close to that when tight.
C. Back off the spanner nut about 1/2 turn from this point and wiggle stop-to-stop several more times to redistribute the grease. See how the "drag" feels. If it is real smooth, tighten it back down about 1/4 turn until it starts to drag again. You want some drag at this point, which will dissipate with some riding.

The "hard tightening" here will distort the roller cage to match the partial-race mesh, without your having to ride & retighten for the next 12 months while it settles itself in.

This is my preferred method:
2. Use Timken bearings. You will need to get your own spacer washer for the bottom, and another one for the top (dimensions below). [NOTE: circa 2002, you must grind Timkens' bearings to fit: probably not practical now. Edited 10/2009]
A. Install as noted above, big washer on the bottom, etc. On the top, the bearing will not stick up high enough to engage the recess in the bottom of the steering crown, because these are correctly-matched bearing sets. This is where the other washer comes in: put it on last, then the crown.
B. Tighten as above, but then just back off 1/4 turn when done. It will be butter-smooth and fully meshed. Retighten in 100-200 miles, because you probably didn't drive in the lower race like you thought you did, and it will move a bit and loosen the stack.

The Timken bearing numbers are:
Lower: 07100
Upper: L45449
The lower washer is: O.D.: 1.750", I.D.: 1.245" (1.250" will do nicely, too). Thickness can range from 0.100" to 0.125" .
The upper washer is: O.D.: 1.500", I.D.: 1.000" to 1.020". The thickness can range from 0.040" to 0.060" and it will fit.

The Timken numbers I have are circa 1972, just removed from my bike. If they have changed, and I can find the new numbers, I will edit this post later. I will be trying to locate some of these bearings, because I just had to install one of those "green kits" in mine, if only to get it back on the road before Fall...  :-\

Update 10/2009:
Here's the 'word' from Timken: circa 2002, these bearings are only available when ordered in large quantities, like 500 or more sets, at which time they will grind the OD and ID of these two to any spec. The O7100 and L45449 are now only available in 3 standard sizes (each), none of which will drop into the SOHC4 bikes.

Currently, KML is marketing properly-ground bearings to fill in the market's void. These are made of harder materials than the "green box" bearings mentioned above. I found that I can  engrave them with my buzzbox engraver, which is VERY difficult to do on the Timkens, so they are not quite as hard. But, the "green box" bearings I have can be scratched with a hard drag of a file, which makes them considerably softer than either the KML or the Timkens.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 08:26:24 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline jaknight

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2006, 10:43:30 PM »
Greetings HondaMan, ;D

     Thank you very much for the info.  I do appreciate (and I am sure everyone else does) the time and the efforts you have put into this to help save all of us time and hassles (the first of which we have very precious little of, and the second of which we have more than enough of).

     Rebuilding my front end after the wreck and figured this is THE time to make the conversion...... ;)

     ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 11:08:11 PM by jaknight »
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Gabus

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2006, 06:42:59 AM »
Did a little research on the top bearing number. Looks like it's part of the L45400 series. http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/pdf/BrgDimenChap5-9.pdf page 5 lists the specs. The Timken site lists it as an aircraft part, I'm in that business and will have our parts dept. look into availability and cost.

Edit: Parts dept does list the 07100..12 bucks. Have a call into supplier about the L45499, not in our catalog.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 06:56:08 AM by Gabus »

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2006, 10:33:37 AM »
l45449 is still a good number.federal mogul sells it in their bca brand and it is also available in their a15 kit.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2006, 10:39:03 AM »
Federal-Mogul is a good bearing, too. Better than the NKK series, anyway.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2006, 01:40:22 PM »
uh,what happened to my 07100 post from earlier this afternoon,im not being censored am i.my feeling might get hurt. ;D
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2006, 01:40:53 PM »
ok,07100 is also available from bca.it is also in their a19 bearing kit too.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Gabus

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2006, 08:41:13 PM »
My supplier can get the top L45449, it a special order and was quoted 3 weeks delivery time, forgot the exact amount, something like 29 dollars for both the top and bottom. Now where do I get the washers? I like the idea of a SS washer but would be expensive to have made. Any ideas?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2006, 09:45:06 PM »
My supplier can get the top L45449, it a special order and was quoted 3 weeks delivery time, forgot the exact amount, something like 29 dollars for both the top and bottom. Now where do I get the washers? I like the idea of a SS washer but would be expensive to have made. Any ideas?

I'll look around: I might still have some. I'll post back later.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Boomologist

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2006, 10:37:16 PM »
Great info! Thanks.
Been wanting to convert but cost through dealer was WAY too much.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2006, 09:17:34 PM »
My supplier can get the top L45449, it a special order and was quoted 3 weeks delivery time, forgot the exact amount, something like 29 dollars for both the top and bottom. Now where do I get the washers? I like the idea of a SS washer but would be expensive to have made. Any ideas?

I found the 2 that I have left (top washers). They appear to be stainless, but I would paint them lightly, just in case. If you want one, PayPal me $4 and I'll send you one (I'm assuming lower 48 U.S. States, here, though). If you don't like it, send it back & I'll refund it to you: they fit other Hondas and Kaws, too.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline super pasty white guy

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2006, 06:37:22 AM »
Ok, for those searching for these I found a good source for the Timken bearings.

http://www.bdiexpress.com

Cost me ~$17.00 with promised delivery in 2-3 days.

The Virginia branch salesperson (540-662-5600) was extremely friendly and helpful.

Now... I've just got to find the washers.

Dave
Fruit don't talk, fruit just listens... and waits.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2006, 08:57:11 PM »
Ok, for those searching for these I found a good source for the Timken bearings.

http://www.bdiexpress.com

Cost me ~$17.00 with promised delivery in 2-3 days.

The Virginia branch salesperson (540-662-5600) was extremely friendly and helpful.

Now... I've just got to find the washers.

Dave

Thanks for the link, Dave! If you don't find the washers, let me know. I'm getting ready to make up a batch, especially in case the one I sent to Gabe isn't right. I'm gonna make all the sizes I see in my old notes, all at once.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

madbunny

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2006, 10:37:42 AM »
hey guys,
it'd be really friggin helpful if somebody had the cup numbers as the cones don't really work so hot without 'em.
i've wasted a half a day trying to find out what cups are supposed to fit the cones in this app and strangely enough i don't think my roller cups will fit 'em.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2006, 10:46:35 AM »
crowboy,if you could post the outer dimensions of the cups,i could get into my bearing catalog and see what fits.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline super pasty white guy

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2006, 10:52:22 AM »
Yeah, I found this out myself when my package arrived without cups.  DOH!  Live and learn.

The place I ordered from (BDI) shows cup numbers as 07196 and L45510.  I hope that's right. I should have them in my hands this weekend. 

Dave
Fruit don't talk, fruit just listens... and waits.

madbunny

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2006, 03:32:07 PM »
dave,
the only cup numbers listed at timken's on-line bearing search is 07196 and L45410
i purchased both from BDI's cleveland warehouse today (two friggin' 25 mile round trips down cleveland's #$%*tiest highway at rush hour) but haven't gotten to installing yet.
i'm going to go get some chinese food, maybe i'll tackle it tonight. maybe i'll do it tomorrow.
i have a set of chrome ten degree raked triple trees that i've been considering installing at this time as well but i don't know.
the tops of the forks rest in recesses in the top tree, so there's no height adjusment if i don't like where the bike rides.
frankly i don't wnat to tear 'em out after i've put it all back together.
we'll see.

the  absolute killer irony here is that i used to heat treat these self-same part numbers about 8 years ago in timken's canton, ohio plant.
now i'm staring at a cup and cone assembly made in canada and the bottom cup is made in france, the cone in brazil.
at the time i was working the france factories were the only ones outside the states allowed to do critical process stuff, but those on the inside considered their average production stuff to be low qual.
and to be truthful hot bearings tend to look alike at 4 in the morning on a sunday.  :P
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 03:37:25 PM by crowboy »

Offline super pasty white guy

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2006, 06:28:15 PM »
Well, hell.  You're right-  the races arrived today and the top is too big.  I've always had a tendancy to leap before I look.   Maybe I'll drive myself over there so I can get the sucker finished.

dave


Correction:  Turns out that I did a typo up there.  What I've got is a L45449 / L45410 and a 07100 / 07196.  But it looks like the L45449 fits the bottom.  The 07100 won't even fit over the upper threaded portion of the stem and the race is at least 1/32 larger than the original.  This is on a '76 750, but from what I've read elsewhere, they should all be the same.  Guess I either need to go buy a caliper or drive the 50 miles over to BDI to get this straightened out.   Aargh.  Sure wish I could get into a Grainger store locally.

Dave
 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 06:26:05 AM by super pasty white guy »
Fruit don't talk, fruit just listens... and waits.

madbunny

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2006, 07:49:27 AM »
What I've got is a L45449 / L45410 and a 07100 / 07196.  But it looks like the L45449 fits the bottom.  The 07100 won't even fit over the upper threaded portion of the stem and the race is at least 1/32 larger than the original. 

this is not a good start to my morning.
i think i'll attack this project using my 75 bobber frame first to spec it.
maybe i can find my calipers and use the timken site to spec a pair of cups dimensionally.

hondaman! where are you with those elusive cup numbers??!
and more importantly, if folk have been doing this mo' fo'ing conversion since the early seventies why are there no cup and cone numbers anyhwere on the 'net.
everybody's just all "...use a tapered bearing set blah,blah,blah..." and no friggin' numbers?

madbunny

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2006, 07:32:39 PM »
  >:(
okay here we go:

oem top bearing:        I.D.=1.0156     O.D.=1.9062

oem bottom bearing:   I.D=1.1718      O.D.=1.9687

timken "conversion"

07100/07196             I.D.=1.00         O.D.=1.9687

L45449                     I.D.=1.1417     O.D.=1.9800

these bearings fit neither my 74 k3 steering head nor my aftermarket 10 degree trees.
not without squeezing #$%* in tight, machining or taking the torch to the parts (which seems like a good way to garauntee destroying the seal and burning off all the grease.
i think i'm a skip this one and stick with the evil ball bearings.  :-\

Offline bryanj

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2006, 09:32:00 AM »
I'll say it again once more:- The bearings are NOT a standard size that can be bought over the counter without grinding the outer (NOT RECOMMENDED) you just have to live with the "sets" that are made to fiy and come with the spacer washers
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2006, 09:31:05 PM »
Well, boys...I'm working on this whole thing right now. Spent the night in the garage with some "K" bikes. I'll report back shortly with bearings, numbers, dimensions, etc.  I'm also going to be making washers that fit, and ultimately kits with washers, maybe even seals.

I don't ever remember the CB750 steering heads changing. So, I'll take your measurements here and add them to my research. Anybody else got one apart that can measure it?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2006, 09:34:47 PM »
I'll say it again once more:- The bearings are NOT a standard size that can be bought over the counter without grinding the outer (NOT RECOMMENDED) you just have to live with the "sets" that are made to fiy and come with the spacer washers

Hey, Bryan: did your HONDA label fall off the alternator cover, like most of the CB500K0 bikes?
Just wondering...  ::)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 78 k550

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2006, 12:10:50 AM »
I have a 77 750F frame out back if you want to have a measurement on it.

Paul
Paul
Littleton, CO

76/77 CB 750F, 
75 GL1000, (AKA GL1-242 NGWClub),
76 GL1000 LTD
84 GL1200 Standard
6 Bultaco's= 42, 49, 121, 152, 167, 188

Offline bryanj

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Re: Steering head bearings: CB750K
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2006, 04:09:05 AM »
Nope the honda name didnt fall off, but then it was araldited on!
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!