Author Topic: Which Oil update needed  (Read 15227 times)

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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2012, 09:57:30 AM »
This topic comes up at least twice a year. Don't forget we get new members all the time. Some may well enjoy a discussion on the subject. My advice would be if you see what appears to be "yet another oil thread," either ignore it if you have no interest, or participate if  you do.  ;)
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline cabrala

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2012, 10:16:55 AM »
Perhaps we should put the top 4 oils from this thread, throw them into a poll, and see what shakes out as the best all around oil for the price.  Then everytime this subject comes up, we can simply forward the poll numbers.  Too easy.

While this would be a good method for those members just looking to be pushed in a "popular" direction, I think there is an issue with really understanding the oil arguement(s) and those who want to do the research here won't be helped by the poll results.


The reluctancy to another oil thread is simply because there is usually no consensus to them. Everybody has their own idea as to what the 'right' oil to use is, and there has been many of these discussions. Sometimes you can end up more confused about which oil to use than you were before the question was asked. There is nothing wrong with sticking your neck out by posting another oil thread - some of us like a good natured ribfest.  ;)  Sorry Dave, no offense meant, I was just being the first to get my 'poke' in.

I agree that consensus will never be met on what is "right", but there is factual information to be found on the history and transformation of oil from the 70's to today from which one could base a decision. By the way, the images you posted cracked me up!

-Alex

'75 CB750F
'77 CB550K
'78 CB550
'93 FZR600

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Offline cabrala

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2012, 10:32:38 AM »
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

^ All About Oil

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

^ Bob is the Oil Guy

This topic comes up at least twice a year. Don't forget we get new members all the time. Some may well enjoy a discussion on the subject. My advice would be if you see what appears to be "yet another oil thread," either ignore it if you have no interest, or participate if  you do.  ;)

+1, but I think it would be helpful to have a place that collects oil information (not opinion) for reference. Shoot, even include member preferences for brand, viscosity, vendor, and cost.

For example, I use Shell Rotella T 15W40 from Walmart for $13 per gallon.

This information will ultimately lead to the question of "why", and that is where opinions are inserted and misdirection can be found (i.e. synthetics vs. non), so even m scenario becomes a bit sticky...  ???

Hmm, I'll shut up for the time being.
-Alex

'75 CB750F
'77 CB550K
'78 CB550
'93 FZR600

Need a better, newer points cover gasket? How about rubber washers for the headlight bucket? Click the link below:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=122308.0

Offline tlbranth

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2012, 10:35:40 AM »
I've switched to Delo on all my bikes. It's probably the most popular oil on the Goldwing site I read regularly.
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Offline DaveInTexas

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2012, 06:09:55 PM »
OK, thanks. 
You know how sometimes you have a seemingly simple question, pop on to the net hoping to get a one-line, all-encompassing answer to which everyone agrees?  That was me.  Sorry, I was being unreasonable. 
I appreciate the frankness. 
Off to melt some Crisco.

Offline Gordon

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2012, 06:46:19 PM »
Is that a multi or straight-weight Crisco® you're using? 

Offline cabrala

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2012, 06:54:51 PM »
Is that a multi or straight-weight Crisco® you're using?

He did mention 85˚ to 90˚ weather so maybe straight 50W Crisco®?? I'm sure Costco or BJ's sells it in bulk to cut down on oil change costs... ;)
-Alex

'75 CB750F
'77 CB550K
'78 CB550
'93 FZR600

Need a better, newer points cover gasket? How about rubber washers for the headlight bucket? Click the link below:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=122308.0

72500john

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2012, 07:35:41 PM »
dave everyone here enjoys an "oil thread" you did not ask an unreasonable question. but the choice of what oil to use is like asking what your favorite color is. the most important thing is that the one you use is compatable with a wet clutch..thats as far as i am going with that one.
the folks here like to poke fun and mean no harm, they are a great bunch and are a wealth of knowledge, but like to have a good time while doing it.

Offline phil71

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2012, 07:39:35 PM »
make. it. stop

Offline Randawg77

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2012, 08:04:42 PM »
I run Mobil 1 15/50 in my K1 and it loves it. Sit back and watch 300 people tell me I'm an idiot in the next 5 mins




 Thats my  oil of choice too,   its available and cheap,  and I trust Mobil 1.
Don't  Taze me, Bro!

Offline DaveInTexas

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2012, 04:52:09 PM »
Ha, Autozone has the Castrol 4T 20W50 at 4.99/qt - that is what I have been using and the bike has not blown up, and no one mentioned it as a poor choice so I bought a case.
Thanks guys.
Honest, I did a search for engine oil or something and the most recent hit was 6 years ago.   Bunch of guys with good memories I guess!
Hold the lard, I got something better.

Offline GammaFlat

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2012, 05:50:54 PM »
I run Mobil 1 15/50 in my K1 and it loves it. Sit back and watch 300 people tell me I'm an idiot in the next 5 mins
Thats my  oil of choice too,   its available and cheap,  and I trust Mobil 1.
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Offline PeWe

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More important oil information. From Web Cam
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2012, 10:35:28 AM »
I have to write this ::)
I read the information found in a NEW box with a cam from Web Cam to my CB750. (CycleX CX7 cam)
"Please use a premium grade [SAE30] petroleum based racing motor oils such as Kendall or Valvoline. We do not recommend any type of synthetic oil.   ........."

Completely different than my car, turbo charged Audi that must have a good synthetic oil to not break down.

For popcorn I like corn oil or sunflower oil :P
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Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
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Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2012, 11:41:59 AM »
i use shell rotella T6

the reason i used T6 from the regular rotella 15w40 is because it sounded cooler "T6" kinda like terminators T-600 model. you know the really raw basic one used in the beginning of terminator salvation (horrible movie btw)
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

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Offline cb650

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2012, 12:01:38 PM »
We just rode to Neb in 100+ heat 2 up running 65mph.    Fully expected to have some problem but none came up.  Running regular rotella 15/40.  Wish they made a 20/50.
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2012, 01:17:49 PM »
Oil threads like these usually degrade into a simple popularity contest.   Similar to "tattoos of skulls are the best!"
Actual useful "information" about oil, needs to be based on science (rather than popular opinion) to have any meaningful validity.  Even 20,000 test cases of one each, don't tell you much of anything if the "test parameters" were not defined or controlled in any way.

"It hasn't broken yet", is either a loose, unfounded endorsement for an oil choice, or a testimonial on the robustness of the machine it was used in, with no real basic validity for either.

"Brands" mean exactly nothing for a scientific evaluation, as the branders may change internal formulation whenever they choose, for whatever reason they choose, and have no requirement to change the labeling or inform the purchaser of the product when a formulation change has occurred.  Sometimes, they'll even tell you this on the product label.  Usually, they'll have this disclaimer offered from the company elsewhere if you look really hard for it, as a lawyer would do.

So, "Been using (place favorite brand here) for 20 years and haven't had a problem", has no real meaning, because the formulation used 20 years ago has had umpteen + changes to it since the brand's offering 20 years ago.

"Been using this oil for the last 2 miles", has exactly the same confidence assessment as "Been using this oil for the last 100,000 miles".
Where are the wear measurements?  Where is the wear comparison with the exact same machine using a "control brand batch" sample, under the exact same load, temperature, filtration, and other identical conditions?  Actual use in the field is highly varied, and that alone is enough to invalidate individual testimonials.

I've said this before, but all the "information" (such as it is) is stacked against the purchaser, which is exactly why oil threads start and degrade into popularity contests rather that actual useful information.
Oil company marketing is about "Promoting the brand" rather than promoting the formula.  The formula is never published, even though the formula is exactly what the consumer needs to do a meaningful evaluation among brands or samples within brands.  I believe there is actually "intent to confuse" the purchaser.  If all the information you have is about brand and none about formula, the only basis you have for selection >becomes< brand oriented.  If they can associate their brand with something you like or find attractive (like a race car, bike, or sexy image), you'll buy their brand, whatever the internal formula actually is.  It's called appealing to the human baser instincts, which we all have without any propensity for logical evaluation.  For many, thinking objectively is hard.  Reacting with gut instinct is easy.  It's the human condition.  What oil?  Oh, let's pick this one I heard about recently, I'll have another beer and mentally coast for the rest of the day.

Test houses can evaluate and give an endorsement stamp (JASO, API, SAE, etc.) which the oil company then pays them for adding onto their label (which generally adds to the consumer cost, and becomes distasteful to the non-discerning consumer because of that extra cost).
Then it becomes a matter of trust for the consumer to expect that the manufacturer won't change the formulation from batch to batch on future samples.
These test houses usually publish their test criteria and rationale for categorical placement under which a product can receive their endorsement.
Researching this data is much harder (actual work) than posting an internet query on a public forum to solicit opinion.  But, actual measurable and meaningful data about what you are choosing can be found, ... if the allure of coasting toward another beer isn't too dominant, that is.  ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline liPPy

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2012, 01:29:45 PM »
Oil threads like these usually degrade into a simple popularity contest.   Similar to "tattoos of skulls are the best!"
Actual useful "information" about oil, needs to be based on science (rather than popular opinion) to have any meaningful validity.  Even 20,000 test cases of one each, don't tell you much of anything if the "test parameters" were not defined or controlled in any way.

"It hasn't broken yet", is either a loose, unfounded endorsement for an oil choice, or a testimonial on the robustness of the machine it was used in, with no real basic validity for either.

"Brands" mean exactly nothing for a scientific evaluation, as the branders may change internal formulation whenever they choose, for whatever reason they choose, and have no requirement to change the labeling or inform the purchaser of the product when a formulation change has occurred.  Sometimes, they'll even tell you this on the product label.  Usually, they'll have this disclaimer offered from the company elsewhere if you look really hard for it, as a lawyer would do.

So, "Been using (place favorite brand here) for 20 years and haven't had a problem", has no real meaning, because the formulation used 20 years ago has had umpteen + changes to it since the brand's offering 20 years ago.

"Been using this oil for the last 2 miles", has exactly the same confidence assessment as "Been using this oil for the last 100,000 miles".
Where are the wear measurements?  Where is the wear comparison with the exact same machine using a "control brand batch" sample, under the exact same load, temperature, filtration, and other identical conditions?  Actual use in the field is highly varied, and that alone is enough to invalidate individual testimonials.

I've said this before, but all the "information" (such as it is) is stacked against the purchaser, which is exactly why oil threads start and degrade into popularity contests rather that actual useful information.
Oil company marketing is about "Promoting the brand" rather than promoting the formula.  The formula is never published, even though the formula is exactly what the consumer needs to do a meaningful evaluation among brands or samples within brands.  I believe there is actually "intent to confuse" the purchaser.  If all the information you have is about brand and none about formula, the only basis you have for selection >becomes< brand oriented.  If they can associate their brand with something you like or find attractive (like a race car, bike, or sexy image), you'll buy their brand, whatever the internal formula actually is.  It's called appealing to the human baser instincts, which we all have without any propensity for logical evaluation.  For many, thinking objectively is hard.  Reacting with gut instinct is easy.  It's the human condition.  What oil?  Oh, let's pick this one I heard about recently, I'll have another beer and mentally coast for the rest of the day.

Test houses can evaluate and give an endorsement stamp (JASO, API, SAE, etc.) which the oil company then pays them for adding onto their label (which generally adds to the consumer cost, and becomes distasteful to the non-discerning consumer because of that extra cost).
Then it becomes a matter of trust for the consumer to expect that the manufacturer won't change the formulation from batch to batch on future samples.
These test houses usually publish their test criteria and rationale for categorical placement under which a product can receive their endorsement.
Researching this data is much harder (actual work) than posting an internet query on a public forum to solicit opinion.  But, actual measurable and meaningful data about what you are choosing can be found, ... if the allure of coasting toward another beer isn't too dominant, that is.  ;D

Cheers,

Nicely put and all very interesting but I'm curious; what oil(s) do you use?


Offline TwoTired

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2012, 02:14:31 PM »
Nicely put and all very interesting but I'm curious; what oil(s) do you use?

Thanks.

I use what Honda recommends, of course.  They've tested far more than I have!

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline liPPy

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2012, 02:46:09 PM »
Nicely put and all very interesting but I'm curious; what oil(s) do you use?

Thanks.

I use what Honda recommends, of course.  They've tested far more than I have!

Cheers,

Come now, no need to be coy. We're all adults here. Well most of us anyway.... ;)

Honda recommends "Honda 4 Stroke Oil, or an equivalent", with a viscosity of 10w-40 oil for "general, all temperature use".

What I'd like to know, as I'm sure you know perfectly well, is what brand of oil you choose to ensure compliance with that recommendation; Honda oil or do you have a preferred "equivalent".

Thank you!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2012, 03:34:04 PM »
Oh alright, my personal preferences.

Group A:
Honda HP-4 without moly 10w-40
Spectro Golden 4 Semi-Synthetic  10w-40
Red line 10W40 Motorcycle Oil  (If I'm in the mood to splurge or going on a long planned trip where going more than 1500 miles between changes is a distinct possibility)

I have direct experience with group A oils for regular use in my Hondas, if that means anything.

Group B:
Honda GN4 10w-40
Spectro 10W40 Motorcycle Oil

Truth be told any 10w40 oil on the following list would suit me for the group B category, and I would be swayed by purchase price.  I'll take the list with me on a long trip.
http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf

Group C:
I'll cheap out with Wall Mart Rotella T 15w-40 for the first 500 miles of shakedown after resurrecting a long sitting engine.
Or, just about any 4 stroke, motorcycle oil in 10w40 if I'm desperate.  But, I'd much prefer the JASO stamp on it.
After shakedown and no foreseen engine repairs pending, I'll go to Group A oil.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2012, 04:16:34 PM »
where do u buy these group A oils and what do they usually run for?
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

black and white equation godzilla chalkboard 
1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

Offline cabrala

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2012, 04:51:02 PM »
where do u buy these group A oils and what do they usually run for?

I know the HP4 and GN4 is sold at my local Honda dealer. I'm sure if you just googled each label TT has provided, it will yield numerous purchasing location including on-line retailers.
-Alex

'75 CB750F
'77 CB550K
'78 CB550
'93 FZR600

Need a better, newer points cover gasket? How about rubber washers for the headlight bucket? Click the link below:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=122308.0

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2012, 05:34:49 PM »
$9-$10 dollars/qt for HP4 and spectro golden.
$14-$15/qt for red line.

Almost any engine repair costs more than any of those.  Just sayin'...

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2012, 05:41:26 PM »
$9-$10 dollars/qt for HP4 and spectro golden.
$14-$15/qt for red line.

Almost any engine repair costs more than any of those.  Just sayin'...

 :o

my engine wants a rebuild at that price......
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

black and white equation godzilla chalkboard 
1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

Offline liPPy

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Re: Which Oil update needed
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2012, 05:55:34 PM »
Oh alright, my personal preferences.

Group A:
Honda HP-4 without moly 10w-40
Spectro Golden 4 Semi-Synthetic  10w-40
Red line 10W40 Motorcycle Oil  (If I'm in the mood to splurge or going on a long planned trip where going more than 1500 miles between changes is a distinct possibility)

I have direct experience with group A oils for regular use in my Hondas, if that means anything.

Group B:
Honda GN4 10w-40
Spectro 10W40 Motorcycle Oil

Truth be told any 10w40 oil on the following list would suit me for the group B category, and I would be swayed by purchase price.  I'll take the list with me on a long trip.
http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf

Group C:
I'll cheap out with Wall Mart Rotella T 15w-40 for the first 500 miles of shakedown after resurrecting a long sitting engine.
Or, just about any 4 stroke, motorcycle oil in 10w40 if I'm desperate.  But, I'd much prefer the JASO stamp on it.
After shakedown and no foreseen engine repairs pending, I'll go to Group A oil.

Cheers,

That's a formidable array of weaponry there TT.

I'm most impressed by your preparedness - contingencies for the contingencies. I like it. Baden Powell would approve.

And as a man who considers it a personal victory to walk out the front door remembering wallet, phone AND keys, the very notion of going on a trip and packing a list of oil alternatives, "just in case", is so devastatingly prepared it's making my head spin!

I predict a sudden upswing in usage of your Group A oils, not unlike the current global shortage of #42 press in jets created by lucky in his one man crusade to re-jet the world's SOHC4's carbs!