Author Topic: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic electrical failure (UPDATED)  (Read 2575 times)

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Offline DaveI

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74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic electrical failure (UPDATED)
« on: July 13, 2012, 06:12:26 PM »
So I recently finished my several month rebuild of an old crusty 1974 CB750k4 and took it for an epic failure of a maiden voyage.  I'll try to make this interesting for everyone viewing as someone is inevitably sitting there laughing, knowing all of the problems.

In any case, I bought this bike from a guy here in FL who was the only owner and reassured me that the bike was in great shape and just needed a new tube in the rear tire and a master cylinder rebuild to be road worthy..HA. ha.

I ended up finding mouse poop under the busted starter motor (no lie), replaced the whole wire harness from the corroded mess that was in "good shape", installed a new headlight bulb, new tail light assembly and turn signals, all with new fuses, rebuilt the front forks with new seals & 7.3oz of new fork oil, new tapered stem bearings, rebuilt the master cylinder & caliper, cleaned all the electrical switches, installed a new starter motor and a momentary button from the shack (yes the 1.5amp at 125vac normally open works great), rebuilt the carbs with 125 main jets and installed 39mm pods, de rusted the inside of the tank and rebuilt the petcock, among much paint and cosmetic work.

So after all this, I start it up... she purs man... she purs.  Right to 1000rpm with no hesitation on the first kick.  Just sitting there in the garage.  But I notice the tail light and head light don't come on with the switch- just the front turn signals. 

I took it around the block and it ran great.  I get home and take the brown/red wire from the switch assembly on the bars and tap it to the brown/white (for switch control) run a second wire off the brown/red and ran it to the solid brown (tail light).  All electronics work fine.  I put the turn signals on with no problem, try it again and the 5amp tail light fuse blows.  But it kills all the power to the entire bike with the headlight fuse and main fuse in tact.  I try again another day and I get to the corner of my development when it dies.  Luckily I had some spare fuses so I pop a 15amp in just to get to the gas station.  And then, as I am on a busy 55mph road, the bike starts to lose power.  I assumed it was because I only had 1 gallon of gas so I throw it in reserve, start it back up and she goes on... only to lose power at high rpm again and slowly but surely cut off over about 1/4 mile.

This time there isn't enough power to start the bike with the button so I kick it, turn the idle screw to 3000rpm and made it home with it cutting out only twice on the 2 mile ride back home.  When I got home I didn't have enough juice to start it, turn on the turn signals or honk the horn.

So, what gives?  I thoroughly read the wiring diagram and other posts.  I haven't seen someone with such light issues but I will admit that the brown/red does not run one of the two brown/red (with white tape around the top) from the new harness, as it previously did when the tail light didn't work with the old corroded ones..  Would tapping a third wire off the brown red and connecting it solve this perhaps?  Also why am I cutting out?  Would it be the jet size is too small?  Could it be that I am not getting enough power from a charging issue to get the engine to spark right?  Please help.  I have had enough nights drinking beer staring at this until the answer comes.

oh, and why is my front tire bouncy like I am on a dirt road or something?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 06:15:48 PM by DaveI »

Offline dave500

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2012, 06:22:21 PM »
sounds like its not charging for some reason,have you got a multimeter?

Offline VTCBike750

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2012, 06:37:49 PM »
I agree with dave. Read up on the charging system. Maybe something as simple as a voltage regulator clean up and adjustment. My 72 750 needed it. Its pretty easy thougj. To work on the voltage regulator you will.need a leaf gauge.
-Adam

1972 CB750 (current project)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=87951.0

Offline DaveI

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2012, 06:38:41 PM »
I have a dead multimeter in the garage but I am going to get it running and see what the problem is.  I figure if the battery voltage is less that 12.6 which is what it was on my check the other day when it worked, then the battery isn't charging.  Maybe I can ride around with a car next to me with jumper cables hooked up to keep her going.

Would a new rectifier and alternator do the trick?  Or is this a combination bad fuel/air ratio problem coupled up with an electrical issue?

Offline dave500

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2012, 06:45:02 PM »
sort the electrics first,just buying and putting on parts might be a waste of money,it could be a simple dirty connection or two or one of a few things,,bad rectifier,this turns the ac current the alternator makes into usable dc current,the regulator might be bad,this controls the voltage sent to the field coil which is an electromagnet,the field coil itself might be open circuit and not working,,the stator has three separate windings which one may have failed,download the manual and get your multimeter working,you might save some coin.

Offline XLerate

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2012, 07:08:26 PM »
Agree with what Dave said, especially about multimeter. Only way to be certain what you're dealing with is to trace wires and chase voltage. If your meter is some fancy high dollar thing, the el cheapo ones at hardware stores, sometimes $9.95 on sale, work just fine for this low volt DC and amperages you're dealing with on bikes. Nice thing too, they're small enough to be able to always have it with you in your kit.

With a used harness unless you unwrap the whole thing there's no way to tell what 'changes' somebody made way back when. Seen some real bizzare stuff. "Well I ain't got any of that there Brown/Red wire so I'll just patch in this here Brown, and I'll remember what I did...." Problem is you can't remember what he's remembering. Meter answers the questions without unwrapping anything.

Also on these systems [any electrical] extra clean grounds are every bit as important as good clean hot wires because a single ground can carry all kinds of circuits. A dab of dielectric or other grease on ground connections helps keep corrosion away. Corrosion runs to ground first, before it hits hot wires. One more thing: battery cable connection lug can look nice and clean but under the plastic insulation it's all green and white crud. Good to slit the end and peel back & check, tape it back up with Scotch 33+ electrical tape. That's the best tape you'll find.

Offline the technological J

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2012, 07:19:12 PM »
i would double check your rectifier and regulator hook ups but sound like a lack of power all around
70 KO...sold to fund the ST http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88800.0(Alpha)
74 Kaw 250 Enduro http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=124278.0
K4 added to collection! http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=104784.0
78 750K... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60257.0 (Omega)sold to fund the K4
94 ST1100..Gone
72 750 K2 Stay tuned!

Offline VTCBike750

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2012, 05:55:34 AM »
Be wary about jumping a bike off a car battery. Car batteries have too many amps. If you have to jump it off a car, hook the negative to the bikes frame, not battery.
-Adam

1972 CB750 (current project)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=87951.0

Offline dave500

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2012, 05:59:05 AM »
dont wory about the amps,,just make sure you hook it correctly,,a reversal or wrong hoook up results in smoke,,and much sorrow.

Offline VTCBike750

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2012, 06:33:17 AM »
Ah, Always been cautioned about that. Thanks Dave.
-Adam

1972 CB750 (current project)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=87951.0

Offline cgswss

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2012, 06:33:42 AM »
Any vom should let you check you battery voltage.  hokk it up with the bike running.  check the voltage then rev the bike a little.  does the voltage go up (to say 13.5 or so?)  This will give a good indication if the bike is charging.

I would get out the dremel with a small wire brush on it and undo every ground then strip the trrminal, bolt, and frame with the wire brush (or use sand paper) so you ar 100% sure you have ground.

As it sounds like you have done some modifications to the wireing to get you lights working, disconnect all those changes so only the engine connections are hooked up and try to get the engine working right first. 

bollingball

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2012, 06:40:23 AM »
Maybe I can ride around with a car next to me with jumper cables hooked up to keep her going.
While you are at it hook up a fuel line. How far can a 750 go with a 30 gallon tank?

Really get your meter working and get the correct print.
Ken

Offline DaveI

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2012, 08:41:59 AM »
Thanks for the ideas. I have new batteries in the multi-meter so I will be checking everything today. The wire harness was is actually a brand new replacement one from cb750 supply. Hopefully that will help me keep it simple.

Do any of the electrical issues mentioned above help explain why when just one tail light fuse pops the whole bike is dead until I replace it. I thought the main was there for a reason.

Offline Stev-o

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2012, 07:24:13 PM »
How old is the battery?

And sounds like your front tire needs to be balanced.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline DaveI

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2012, 10:35:02 AM »
The battery was "just replaced" when I bought it but I was wondering the same thing. I've been prodding around with the multimeter and am pretty sure it is a charginimg issue.

As far as the fuses go, I need to investigate this but an electrical engineer friend of mine told me to check the pins in the plastic clips on the replacement wire harness. He had a similar problem and a pin was in the wrong spot on the fuse holder connection which was shorting something.   I guess double check your replacement harness before you install it.

Offline Stev-o

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2012, 10:58:22 AM »
Very easy to check charging. With bike idling, check Volts at battery.  Then hold throttle so motor is at 3K RPM and check voltmeter, voltage should raise. 
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline DaveI

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2012, 01:08:06 PM »
Here's the numbers... taken from the battery:

With the motor off and ignition on before testing: 11.71vdc
At idle (and wanted to shut off by itself): 9.08vdc
at 3000rpm: 8.53vdc
at 4000rpm: 8.41vdc
After the test with motor off and ignition still on: 9.35vdc
With motor and ignition off: 10.70vdc

seems like a charging issue... so is the the voltage regulator or rectifier?

Offline DaveI

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2012, 10:45:31 PM »
Hey all,

I'm at a point again where I have a question I could not find elsewhere. After seeing the electrical issues with a multimeter, I was pointed towards the alternator to see if that's where the charging problem was occurring.
The local bike shop told me to check the yellow wires from te stator.
Good news:
I have continuity between all 3 yellow wires and no continuity to the ground. He told me to unplug the five pin clip and check the ac voltage coming out but there's no gouge ac output numbers in the shop manual. I'd think 20vac would be good if it runs without being plugged in, but does anyone know if it will or what to look for?
If it does, this is an easy way to see if the rotor is failed without pulling the side cover off.

Offline VTCBike750

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2012, 03:06:44 PM »
Not sure what to tell ya about the AC voltage coming out of the stator. When I had a charging issue cleaning the regulater and putting things into spec fixed it up.

This is compliments of Harry in the FAQs:

VIII.   Regulator bench test. 
A.   Remove regulator cover. 
B.   First check the core gap to be sure it is between .6 and 1mm. 
C.   Next check the points gap to be sure it is between .3 and .6mm.
D.   Clean the points with contact cleaner. 
E.   Note the 350F points gap is not adjustable. 
F.   Test the regulator leads by first placing paper on both sides of the points contacts. 
G.   Test resistance between I and F, then I and E terminals.  Check you manual for model specific resistance readings. 
H.   Test for 0 resistance at regulator points connections.
I.    While the points contact is in the upper position test between I and F. 
J.   While in the lower position test between F and E. 
K.   Note.  Do not file the points or they will quickly pit when used again.

Its fairly easy. Not sure if you've had a look at the regulator yet. Seems that things get dirty after 38 years and the regulator just needs a little TLC. From your previous post is looks like your just not charging properly. Id start here.
-Adam

1972 CB750 (current project)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=87951.0

Offline DaveI

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic failure
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2012, 01:18:32 PM »
Made some progess.  Found a wiring issue with the CB750 supply harness.  I think its probably because of its compatibility with other years, however I wasn't getting continuity from the ignition to the red and brown wire running through the fuse.  Originally, the red/brown wire from the hand controls would plug into a red/brown in the headlight bucket (replacement harness has two).  You would check continuity between the red/brown and the bottom red/brown in the pin that connected to the fuse.  If you checked the top/red brown in the pin, it should have continuity to the ignition key circuit.  Mine didn't.  I had to jump the brown white to the spare brown/red to get continuity with the key.

I recharged the batter and tested again.  I had 12.30 volts charge and when I turned on the bike it dropped to 11.81

All the way through 1000rpm to 8000rpm, I had 11.85.  Looks like it wants to charge.

Additionally, I tested the yellow wires coming from the stator in volts AC and got 3.3 on each with the bike at idle (1000rpm).  I don't know if that is good or indicates a dying generator component.  Someone please let me know if you have tried this or would like to, in an attempt to find a way to test the charging system without taking the left side covers off.

I'll be testing the regulator/ rectifier next to see what I find.

Offline DaveI

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic electrical failure (UPDATED)
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2012, 06:20:05 PM »
Hey all,

I think I had the problem and just need someone to help me confirm...

I did the stator test and all three wires checked out good at .6-.8 ohms.  When I did the field coil test (white wire in block connector to green wire in block connector coming from alternator cover) I got 0.  I should have 7.2 ohms from what I understand.

Despite what I was trying to avoid (removing oil and side covers), I had to and what did I find?  A disconnected white field coil wire.  But I did all of the tests and found that there was nothing going on in the rectifier.  How reliable is that bench test of connecting the leads and looking for different resistance levels?  I got 0 on all with the rectifier removed and testing it in the comfort of air conditioning.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 07:22:14 PM by DaveI »

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: 74' CB750K rebuild.. and epic electrical failure (UPDATED)
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2012, 09:25:33 PM »
As usual with charging problems IMO, nothing actually wrong with your regulator, stator and field coil... just a disconnected wire. Bet your rectifier is good too. Unless your meter has a 'diode' setting it wont 'turn-on' the diodes ( there's 6 of 'em ) in the rectifier, so your meter will not read.
Put your meter across the battery and rev the bike to 3,000 rpm. What's the voltage ? If it's above 13v and below 14.5v then A.O.K.. ;)
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....