Author Topic: Charging issues  (Read 5016 times)

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Offline DJ_AX

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Charging issues
« on: July 24, 2012, 10:49:27 AM »
75 550
Doesn't seem to be charging properly  >:(

Following the charging system tests in the FAQs
I got up to C.2.b. ... the regulator...  "Test for resistance between the white wire and ground.  Resistance between 4 and 8 ohms means the field coil is good."

I get NO resistance...
In the FAQ it doesn't say what this means!
Is the regulator clearly bad?  ???
Can I just stop testing right there and replace it?
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2012, 10:55:39 AM »
or ... wait ... bad stator? idk

continuing testing ...
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 10:57:33 AM by DJ_AX »
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2012, 11:37:04 AM »
 :o
a stray green female with no male in sight...
What does it mean?
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2012, 12:11:21 PM »
On to.... 
Quote
VIII.   Regulator bench test.
A.   Remove regulator cover. 
B.   First check the core gap to be sure it is between .6 and 1mm. 
C.   Next check the points gap to be sure it is between .3 and .6mm.
This is the regulator right?

How do I check the core gap?
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline Bodi

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2012, 12:16:31 PM »
The regulator is the metal box with three wires in your first pic.
The extra green wire is normal, presumably there for a three terminal signal flasher maybe used in different markets or for police models.
The measurement is between the white and green wires on the regulator, these go to the alternator field coil. It's best to measure with the wires removed: measure between the wire ends, not on the regulator terminals. There are a few connectors between there and the actual coil, so "no resistance" - do you mean zero or infinity ohms??? - could be the coil is bad or the connections are bad.

Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2012, 12:22:37 PM »
or is it this?
Google images shows both .. I'm confused

OH ok i c .. thanks Bodi
... moving right along .. :)
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline crazypj

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2012, 01:11:06 PM »
Yep, that's the Reg
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'

Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2012, 01:29:29 PM »
OK ...
I'm here now ..
Quote
IX.   Perform RPM test again.  Be sure all components meet specks before going forward from here. 
A.   Reconnect all components but leave the regulator cover off. 
B.   Start the bike and lock the throttle at 4000 RPM. 
C.   The voltage should read between 14V and 15V. 
D.   If voltage is low unlock the adjuster screw nut and turn the IN. NOTE do not run the screw into the coil winding or short the screw to something else with the screwdriver.   
E.   If voltage is high adjust the screw OUT. 

Adjusting the screw has no effect.

Also ... the contact doesn't move at any RPM ...

Is it supposed to?


Also .. voltage is above 14 until I turn the lights on ... then only up to 12.5. is that right? wrong?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 01:31:49 PM by DJ_AX »
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2012, 03:00:26 PM »
damn... looks like I'm not taking the 550 out tonight  :P
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline crazypj

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2012, 03:41:55 PM »
Black wire at harness should have battery voltage with ignition turned on.
Power goes through coils/resistor and out on white wire to field coil
 Green should be grounded
I would be checking connectors and wiring continuity first
I fake being smart pretty good
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Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 09:31:19 AM »
Quote
...
B.   Start the bike and lock the throttle at 4000 RPM. 
C.   The voltage should read between 14V and 15V. 
...
... voltage is above 14 until I turn the lights on ... then only up to 12.5. is that right? wrong?

??? Just wanted to be clear on this part...
... voltage is above 14 until I turn the lights on ... then only up to 12.5. is that right? wrong?

~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline crazypj

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2012, 06:05:15 PM »
Stock headlight?
If you have a H4 60/55 it should still balance but there isn't any 'extra'
I fake being smart pretty good
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Offline scottly

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2012, 10:12:19 PM »
Quote
...
B.   Start the bike and lock the throttle at 4000 RPM. 
C.   The voltage should read between 14V and 15V. 
...
... voltage is above 14 until I turn the lights on ... then only up to 12.5. is that right? wrong?

??? Just wanted to be clear on this part...
... voltage is above 14 until I turn the lights on ... then only up to 12.5. is that right? wrong?
Is that 12.5 at 4000 RPM? Measured at the battery?
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 02:52:18 AM »
Quote
...
B.   Start the bike and lock the throttle at 4000 RPM. 
C.   The voltage should read between 14V and 15V. 
...
... voltage is above 14 until I turn the lights on ... then only up to 12.5. is that right? wrong?

??? Just wanted to be clear on this part...
... voltage is above 14 until I turn the lights on ... then only up to 12.5. is that right? wrong?
Is that 12.5 at 4000 RPM? Measured at the battery?
yes

sorry I wasn't being clear ... but I wanted to be  ::)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 02:53:58 AM by DJ_AX »
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline Duanob

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 08:46:59 AM »
Sounds like your regulator is doing it's job at 14+ V. possibly a short or corrosion somewhere in the harness?  Did you check your headlight plug? Is it melted or burned?

I always use this diagnostic instruction:

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/FAQ.html
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

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Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 11:03:00 AM »
As I was settling into tinkering with this today...
I was reminded of a tiny wisp of smoke I saw come from the RH switch last year... when I was just seeing if I could get it to run ok. Because I got it to run well, I dismissed it back then.

So today I took apart that switch. The contacts on the headlight switch looked just a bit corroded. Cleaned it up, put it back together, and now I'm getting almost 13.6ish V at 4k rpm ... 14.5+ V at 6k rpm. With the lights on.

It appears that I have found the bug and squashed it!

Thanks for the help! :)
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2012, 10:46:43 AM »
.... right .. so it seems to have gone back to it's old ways. Now I'm wondering if I read the numbers wrong? NO  >:( ... I wouldn't have written them down if I wasn't sure.

But anyway.
Just realized the PO had put in an H4 55/60 headlight.
However no rectifiers (as recommended here), but rather 3 additional bullet connectors just inches down the line from the original connectors. (cute)
I'm guessing at this point the extra draw is not working well on the light switch.
Am I right?
Thoughts?
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline scottly

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2012, 12:09:16 PM »
Put the red meter lead on the battery + terminal, and the meter black lead on the regulator black terminal. Turn the key on, headlight off, motor not running, and note the voltage. Next, turn the headlight on, and note the voltage.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2012, 02:01:41 PM »
Put the red meter lead on the battery + terminal, and the meter black lead on the regulator black terminal. Turn the key on, headlight off, motor not running, and note the voltage. Next, turn the headlight on, and note the voltage.
Thank you for some direction :)
OK ....
... w/ key off = 12.5v
... w/ key on = 0.5v
... w/ key + light on = 1.0v

noted

and this means....?
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline crazypj

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2012, 03:20:01 PM »
It means your loosing 1 v in wiring harness (probably connectors/switches)
I fake being smart pretty good
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Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2012, 05:38:09 PM »
re-cleaned some switches and connections... (discovered that there are different colored wires connected to the light switch and going into the bars than the colors coming out of the bars.. oye)
And now just checking the charging again...
with the lights off, at the battery, it goes up to 16v @ 5k rpm ... is that too high? ... because I fiddled with the voltage regulator?
....but with the light on it tops out at 12.6v

damnit ... electrics is my nemesis ..
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 05:39:49 PM by DJ_AX »
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2012, 05:39:56 PM »
Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - Regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7 - 15V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes.  Changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.









Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline scottly

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2012, 06:24:23 PM »
re-cleaned some switches and connections... (discovered that there are different colored wires connected to the light switch and going into the bars than the colors coming out of the bars.. oye)
And now just checking the charging again...
with the lights off, at the battery, it goes up to 16v @ 5k rpm ... is that too high? ... because I fiddled with the voltage regulator?
....but with the light on it tops out at 12.6v

damnit ... electrics is my nemesis ..
Yes, the voltage going up to 16V is probably due to messing with the reg. ;)
The .5 volt reading shows a normal voltage drop. The fact that the charging system works until you turn on the headlight makes me think your headlight is wired incorrectly, turning on both the high-beam and the low beam, and is drawing 115 watts. This might also explain the wisp of smoke from the switch.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2012, 06:34:30 PM »
Do check the basics.  If just one of the six diodes in the rectifier is open, the peak output capacity of the alternator is reduced by 1/6th, making your 150 watt peak charging system a 125 watt peak charging system.  Works ok with light loading, poorly with full load as well as an additional load from a higher wattage headlight.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline scottly

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2012, 07:31:34 PM »
Do check the basics.  If just one of the six diodes in the rectifier is open, the peak output capacity of the alternator is reduced by 1/6th, making your 150 watt peak charging system a 125 watt peak charging system.  Works ok with light loading, poorly with full load as well as an additional load from a higher wattage headlight.
Yeah, I was wondering about the rectifier also, but the change from 16v to 12.6 seems too drastic, and the OP has also reported creative headlight wiring.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....