Author Topic: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle  (Read 4482 times)

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clgenelin

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Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« on: July 29, 2012, 06:17:49 AM »
I have a '77 CB750K that is extremely cold blooded.  To start the bike, I need to twist the throttle 4-5 times prior to ignition.  This seems to be required to get the bike over the 1,500 RPM hump.  Once started and at higher RPMs, I need to hold the throttle open for several minutes.  If not, the bike will slowly die.  Additionally, when the bike is cold, any quick twists of the throttle will cause the bike to bog down.  This problem gets better after the bike has been driven and is completely warmed up.

The bike has a stock airbox with a K&N filter.  I just put a MAC 4-1 exhaust on it, but the problem is the same as when it had an unknown 4-2 exhaust.  I stripped the carbs down completely, soaked in carb dip, scrubbed and reassembled.  I've looked into the carbs when twisting throttle and the accelerator pump appears to be working fine.  Additionally, I've tried to adjust my fuel-air screws on my carbs cylinder by cylinder as per the manual to achieve the proper idle RPM.  However, these screws appears to have no impact on RPM unless they are all the way in or out, in which case the bike dies.  Finally, I do not know what different size jets if any previous owners have installed.

Any ideas?

Offline lucky

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2012, 08:03:03 AM »
Thats not cold blooded,it's LEAN.

After making sure the accelerator pump nozzles (4) are all working.
To check the nozzles remove the air filter. Take a bright LED pocket flashlight and with the engine OFF gas on. Look into the intake of each carb and twist the throttle a couple times. You should see a squirt of gas come out of the brass nozzle sticking up and squirting into the engine. Check ALL 4.

The idle jets are probably clogged.
The stock ones are #35's and you will need a .010 steel guitar string to clean them out. They are the push in jets.

Also those idle jets will be way too small for your set up.

I will give you two options  you could use.
OPTION ONE:

#120 main jets.
#42 idle jets.
Needles stock position.
Mixture screws about 7/8 turn open.

OPTION TWO:

Main jets #120.
Idle jets #42.
Needle raised by dropping the clip one notch.
Luckily this 1977 had adjustable needles.
Mixture screws about 3/4 turn open .



« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 08:16:38 AM by lucky »

Offline lucky

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2012, 08:06:58 AM »
After making sure the accelerator pump nozzles (4) are all working.
The idle jets are probably clogged.

The stock ones are #35's and you will need a .010 steel guitar string to clean them out. They are the push in jets. The 35 mm idle jet has a .013 hole.

Also those idle jets will be way too small for your set up.

I will give you two options  you could use.
OPTION ONE:

#120 main jets.
#42 idle jets.
Needles stock position.
Mixture screws about 7/8 turn open.

OPTION TWO:

Main jets #120.
Idle jets #42. Possibly a #40 maybe.
Needle raised by dropping the clip one notch.
Luckily this 77 had adjustable needles.
Mixture screw about 3/4 turn open.

The stock #35 idle jet will never work.




« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 08:12:10 AM by lucky »

clgenelin

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2012, 08:24:53 AM »
What's a good source for jets?

bollingball

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2012, 08:53:20 AM »
I stripped the carbs down completely

You did this and don't know what size jets you have? What else did you forget?

lucky with all the things you have posted about these carbs and you tell the man to start taking the carbs apart without setting every thing up correctly first.
 clg first lets make sure you even have the correct carbs on your bike. What are the model numbers on the side? Have you read the setup procedure in the Honda manual??

 I need to twist the throttle 4-5 times prior to ignition.  This seems to be required to get the bike over the 1,500 RPM hump.  Once started and at higher RPMs, I need to hold the throttle open for several minutes. This is done for you when the fast idle cam is set up correctly and the accelerator working properly again this is in the manual.

 
Ken

Offline lucky

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2012, 08:56:59 AM »
What's a good source for jets?

The push in style jets are available from Sirius consolidated.
You can sometimes see them on Ebay. That is the best way to contact them.

I would buy main jets from Jets R Us. Much faster.

Offline lucky

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2012, 08:59:32 AM »
I stripped the carbs down completely

You did this and don't know what size jets you have? What else did you forget?

lucky with all the things you have posted about these carbs and you tell the man to start taking the carbs apart without setting every thing up correctly first.
 clg first lets make sure you even have the correct carbs on your bike. What are the model numbers on the side? Have you read the setup procedure in the Honda manual??

 I need to twist the throttle 4-5 times prior to ignition.  This seems to be required to get the bike over the 1,500 RPM hump.  Once started and at higher RPMs, I need to hold the throttle open for several minutes. This is done for you when the fast idle cam is set up correctly and the accelerator working properly again this is in the manual.

 
Ken

Ken he said 1977 and he mentioned the accelerator pump.
He also said the mixture screw had no effect so I am led to believe that the idle jets are clogged because only the idle jet and the mixture screw control the idle.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 09:01:18 AM by lucky »

clgenelin

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2012, 09:21:00 AM »
Obviously I'm new at this game, and this was the first time I've messed with a carb in my life.  When I disassembled the carbs, I took everything apart that I could.  The main jets came out of the carbs, but the idles didn't.  I believe I read they area press-fit, and I didn't want to mess with them.  I didn't notice/didn't look for any number on the mains, so I don't know what size they are right now.

I believe the carbs are correct.  The only number I saw is faint but appears to read, "41AW0I^"  I followed procedures in the Clymer manual for disassembling and reassembly.  The first problem I encountered was "Idle Mixture Adjustment."  No matter what I did with the pilot screws, it did not effect the RPMs (with the exception of all in/out in which case it killed the motor).

It sounds like I may have the wrong sized jets for my current setup, idle jets may be clogged & too small, and recheck accelerator pump?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2012, 12:05:27 PM »
The main jets came out of the carbs, but the idles didn't.  I believe I read they area press-fit, and I didn't want to mess with them.  I didn't notice/didn't look for any number on the mains, so I don't know what size they are right now.
The press in slow jets must be removed for proper cleaning.  Grab them with pliers  (parallel jaw type is best, but leather pads can suffice) and pull them out for cleaning.  You must see light pass through them when dry internally.

While you MAY have to increase the mains and lift the slide needles to get mixtures better suited for the filter and exhaust changes, you really need to get the carbs in best condition before a fine tuning effort, which includes ALL the routine tune up check list.

I believe the carbs are correct.  The only number I saw is faint but appears to read, "41AW0I^" 

They are PD41A Carbs.  Stock for your bike.

I followed procedures in the Clymer manual for disassembling and reassembly.  The first problem I encountered was "Idle Mixture Adjustment."  No matter what I did with the pilot screws, it did not effect the RPMs (with the exception of all in/out in which case it killed the motor).
The effective adjustment range for these items is limited, as the EPA and Honda didn't want owner tampering to circumvent pollution reduction.
However, they regulate AFTER the pilot/slow/idles jets deliver.  Problems upstream the source can make the screws in effective.

It sounds like I may have the wrong sized jets for my current setup, idle jets may be clogged & too small, and recheck accelerator pump?

Do recheck the accelerator pump (as well as ensure the choke plates can achieve full closure for cold starting.
Few realize how strong the accelerator pump jets must squirt (rather than dribble) and this provide 90% of the throttle twist acceleration power.

Key details are:
-- The two check valves must allow flow in one direction only.  Find them and prove that liquids flow in one direction only.  You don't have to take the valves apart usually, and they are hidden from direct view.  But, you can use the red nozzles that come with the aerosol cans of carb cleaner to prover their function as well as clean them safely and properly.


--  The pump diaphragm has two ears, that provide a seal for the fuel channel.  The holes must be the same size as the channel holes and not swelled closed.  Drill them out to slightly over size and they will not restrict the flow in those channels.

-- One pump for 4 carbs means there is a distribution pipe/channel for the fuel to the individual nozzles.  Some interlink pipes have orifice restrictors to make all the nozzles receive the same pressure/volume.  I've actually never had to take them apart, as I've don't see much need to separate the carbs from the bank assembly.  But, I do run carb cleaner under pressure into the pump's outlet channel to clean and prove that all four squirters are clear and shooting fluid equally (on the bench).  Safety glasses are recommended.

Once the accelerator pump is working properly, I've experienced carbs with plugged pilot jets, will still accelerate well, even though it won't idle below 2500 RPM without cyclic twisting of the throttle.

Also, with the pump working at proper capacity, and the pilot jets clear, the pilot screws can be adjusted for peak idle RPM.  But, the RPM changes are very small.  You need a sensitive tach to do this properly, and the one on the bike is not that sensitive to note 50 RPM changes.

After you are damn certain the carbs are cleaned and vacuum balanced, and the rest of the tune up check list is fresh and the air filter clean as new, THEN you can start fine tuning the mains and the slide needles the achieve the light tan deposits on the spark plug tips.  If you ignore the basics and jump to fine tuning early, you'll find another fine tuning effort is needed after something in the basics change later, ime.

FYI:  The center spark plug has the desired porcelain tip color.



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

clgenelin

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2012, 03:07:55 PM »
Pulled the carbs off and looked closely at my jets.  The mains are #115 and the idles are #35.  Pulled out the #35's and could see light through them.  Currently have them soaking in carb cleaner.  Will get a guitar string tomorrow.

My accelerator pump was fairly corrodid when I originally cleaned them.  I've seen replacement parts online.  Perhaps a new one is in order.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 03:22:56 PM by clgenelin »

clgenelin

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2012, 04:13:27 PM »
Cleaned idle jets by soaking in carb cleaner overnight.  Also soaked accelerator pump components.  Check that both valves only worked in one direction.  Drilled out "Mikey Mouse" ears and small O-ring.

After reinstalling everything on the bike, it idles better, but any sudden throttle cracks produce the same result, and the bike wants to die.

Offline lucky

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2012, 04:22:07 PM »
Cleaned idle jets by soaking in carb cleaner overnight.  Also soaked accelerator pump components.  Check that both valves only worked in one direction.  Drilled out "Mikey Mouse" ears and small O-ring.

After reinstalling everything on the bike, it idles better, but any sudden throttle cracks produce the same result, and the bike wants to die.

The result you keep getting from "cracking"open the throttle is because the idle jets are too small. You need to get #42's Mixture screws about 3/4 open.

Also since you have adjustable needles the clips on the needles should be on the 2nd notch down from the top.


OPTIONS:

Stock Air box.
4 into 1 exhaust.
#120 main jets.
#42 idle jets.
Needles stock position.
Mixture screws about 7/8 turn open.

OPTION TWO:

Stock air box.
4 into 1 Exhaust.
Main jets #115.
Idle jets #42.
Needle raised by dropping the clip one notch.
Luckily this 1977 had adjustable needles.
Mixture screws about 3/4 turn open .
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 04:25:45 PM by lucky »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2012, 04:25:11 PM »
After reinstalling everything on the bike, it idles better, but any sudden throttle cracks produce the same result, and the bike wants to die.

Then you still have a problem with the accelerator pump.  When it works well, it doesn't matter what pilot jet size you have.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline lucky

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2012, 04:30:09 PM »
After reinstalling everything on the bike, it idles better, but any sudden throttle cracks produce the same result, and the bike wants to die.

Then you still have a problem with the accelerator pump.  When it works well, it doesn't matter what pilot jet size you have.

I do not agree.
I have used these carbs and even with the accelerator pump system working properly there is hesitation unless the idle jets are increased with the 4 into 1 exhaust. I tried #38 idle jets, #40 idle jets, and #42 idle jets.
That was my personal experience, and I tried adjusting the mixture screw on each jet size tested.

But do your own testing and evaluate it yourself.

clgenelin

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2012, 03:51:04 PM »
I finally got the right type of idle jets in the mail today from Sirius.  They were out of #42's for several weeks, so I went with #40's.  Now that makes 120 mains and 40 idles with a 4-1 MAC exhaust, stock airbox and K&N filter.  Any suggestions set-up beyond that?

I also bought a new accelerator pump.  I came with the plunger, dust cover, spring, and an o-ring.  Any idea what the small o-ring is for?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2012, 04:18:46 PM »
I finally got the right type of idle jets in the mail today from Sirius.  They were out of #42's for several weeks, so I went with #40's.  Now that makes 120 mains and 40 idles with a 4-1 MAC exhaust, stock airbox and K&N filter.  Any suggestions set-up beyond that?

Don't bother with the idle jet change.  Get the pump to work at full output

I also bought a new accelerator pump.  I came with the plunger, dust cover, spring, and an o-ring.  Any idea what the small o-ring is for?
Perhaps for between float bowl and carb body, to seal the pump output channel?  It wouldn't be in carb kits for the basic carb. but would be needed for the bowl fitted with the pump.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2012, 04:51:34 PM »
O-ring seals the acc. pump 'output' channel  to the carb body, as already described.
The '77 and '78 750's with the PD style carbs must have a fully working acc. pump with a good squirt of fuel into each carb throat or the bike will just 'fall flat on it's face' when any throttle above idle is applied.... ;)
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline lucky

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2012, 05:21:54 PM »
Here is forum members data to show you this same set up.
Click on the chart to enlarge. You can clearly see that the #42 idle jet is perfect.
Where is says needle shims read that as clip positions.
You will see that 1/4,1/2, and 3/4 throttle is nearly perfect.

On the chart where you see n/a it means the dyno could not read the off the chart mixture. It was out of bounds.

Where the chart says, "meter" that means fuel/air ratio meter mounted on the motorcyle exhaust.

I have run a 78 with stock air box, 4 into 1 exhaust, stock needle non adjustable, 1 turn open on the mixture, #120 main jets and #42 idle jets with good results. Just another option.

With stacks or pods you really need to raise the needle one notch.


« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 05:31:42 PM by lucky »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2012, 06:35:08 PM »
Kinda makes one wonder how Honda was able to make the engine run so well with #35 idle jets.  (Perhaps they have some actual expertise?)

...I wonder how much of a gross polluter it becomes with #42 and other enrichment. ::)  Not that anyone cares about that, of course.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline lucky

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2012, 09:23:33 PM »
Kinda makes one wonder how Honda was able to make the engine run so well with #35 idle jets.  (Perhaps they have some actual expertise?)

...I wonder how much of a gross polluter it becomes with #42 and other enrichment. ::)  Not that anyone cares about that, of course.

The answer is simple. They used a stock air box with a very small opening and restrictive paper filter element and restrictive exhausts.

But there are Arizona bikes that have to pass emissions and have done so with the proper non stock combo of aftermarket exhausts, filters, and jetting.

All that matters is that they pass the emissions test.
The laws do not say you cannot have pods or aftermarket exhaust.
You just have to pass the test.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 09:27:26 PM by lucky »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2012, 10:20:09 PM »
The answer is simple. They used a stock air box with a very small opening and restrictive paper filter element and restrictive exhausts.

That's not an real answer.  That's a fantasy story, imo.  None of the thing you listed have significant effects at idle speed air volumes.  It all breathes just fine at 8000 RPM making big gulps of air.  At idle it is using less than an eighth of the volume with very tiny carb slide openings, making the inlet area huge, the filter element hardly taxed, and neither is the exhaust gas volume.

It's a good story for the naive, though.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline brewsky

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2012, 01:16:15 AM »
Here is forum members data to show you this same set up.
Click on the chart to enlarge. You can clearly see that the #42 idle jet is perfect.
Where is says needle shims read that as clip positions.
You will see that 1/4,1/2, and 3/4 throttle is nearly perfect.

On the chart where you see n/a it means the dyno could not read the off the chart mixture. It was out of bounds.

Where the chart says, "meter" that means fuel/air ratio meter mounted on the motorcyle exhaust.

I have run a 78 with stock air box, 4 into 1 exhaust, stock needle non adjustable, 1 turn open on the mixture, #120 main jets and #42 idle jets with good results. Just another option.

With stacks or pods you really need to raise the needle one notch.



What the chart doesn't show is between idle and 1/8 the mix is too rich with the 42 jet. I will be replacing it with a 40 or 38, and raising the needle one shim.
The Mac 4/1 is very restrictive with it's stock baffle, and should probably not require re-jetting unless there are other changes.
My guess is the Cycle X 4/1 is much less restrictive and therefore would require different jetting than the Mac with stock baffle.
66 CA77
78 550K
78 CB750K
02 FZ1
09 GL 1800

Offline lucky

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2012, 08:25:15 AM »
Here is forum members data to show you this same set up.
Click on the chart to enlarge. You can clearly see that the #42 idle jet is perfect.
Where is says needle shims read that as clip positions.
You will see that 1/4,1/2, and 3/4 throttle is nearly perfect.

On the chart where you see n/a it means the dyno could not read the off the chart mixture. It was out of bounds.

Where the chart says, "meter" that means fuel/air ratio meter mounted on the motorcyle exhaust.

I have run a 78 with stock air box, 4 into 1 exhaust, stock needle non adjustable, 1 turn open on the mixture, #120 main jets and #42 idle jets with good results. Just another option.

With stacks or pods you really need to raise the needle one notch.



What the chart doesn't show is between idle and 1/8 the mix is too rich with the 42 jet. I will be replacing it with a 40 or 38, and raising the needle one shim.
The Mac 4/1 is very restrictive with it's stock baffle, and should probably not require re-jetting unless there are other changes.
My guess is the Cycle X 4/1 is much less restrictive and therefore would require different jetting than the Mac with stock baffle.

I agree. Small differences in back pressure can make a difference in jetting required. Each owner needs to evaluate the running and tuning of their motorcycle until it is right. But I would err on the side of rich instead of lean to protect the engine. You can always lean it out.
I guess the mixture screws could not mitigate that rich condition at idle?

So raising your needle would be to the middle notch. It will be interesting to see the results. Can you please post your results Brewsky?

When i ran my 78 with 1978 carbs and two shims it ran very strong.
But the shims (.022) were sitting on top of the pocket that is in the bottom of the slide. So the needle was raised about .052 thousandths.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 02:46:57 PM by lucky »

clgenelin

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2012, 08:16:38 AM »
Installed #40 idles, #120 Mains, and new accelerator pump/spring/o-ring.  Fuel-Air screw is currently at 1.5 turns.  I didn't mess with the needle position because frankly I don't know how/where to do that.

The bike runs better, but still not perfect by any means.  For the first minute or two the accelerator pump seamed to work great.  I bench tested it and it was squirting all the way through to the other side of the carbs.  I installed and ran bike for 1-2 minutes and it had great response to quick throttle twists.  Then, it was back to the same.

One thing I didn't mention is my gas tank condition.  It has a light "haze" of surface rust on it.  It appears to be minor and after a thorough investigation, there is no flaking or large debris if any.  I am not running a fuel filter.

Ideas?

Offline Doctorlumen

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Re: Cold Blooded, Dies w/Quick Throttle
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2012, 08:40:07 AM »
I'd pick up that fuel filter along with some new lines.  Maybe even do a quick tank flush and some fresh fuel.

The tell might be the spark plugs. Did you get on the bike and go for a ride? Or did the bike simply idle in the garage for ten minutes? If it simply idled till "real warmed up" and then failed, I believe that is still a lean condition.

What about a synch? Did you do one on the bench?